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Carbon Ceramic Brakes Suspension Effect

6K views 7 replies 5 participants last post by  FOURCED 
#1 ·
I'm not an engineer or a suspension expert but I know there is more Performance "Value" to the Carbon Ceramic Brakes than most people appear to understand.

With all due respect, the Ignorant car reviewers I've watched, and I have watched Dozens, seem to know nothing more about brakes than what the last reviewer they just watched and that was "The Standard Brakes Stop Just Fine So Save Your $8000.00.

The Stelvio Quad is the ultimate High Performance Crossover Beast (See Nurburgring Video or Time) and not a Flat Surface Track Car and certainly not just a grocery getter. These things are expected and destined to see rougher roads at higher speeds.

The Reason so many of the suspension components are made from Aluminum and not Cast Iron is because they need to be light weight in order to follow the road at Higher Speeds and keep the tires planted.
The Higher the speeds and the rougher the terrain the more important this becomes.

9.5 Lbs of unsprung weight per corner is substantial and it could be the difference between losing control of the rear end when you encounter that unexpected washboard road surface mid turn or not.
Yes the Carbon Ceramics could save your life and I'm not talking about Braking. I'm talking about Handling.

Anyone ever have the rear end on their pickup truck or car with a super heavy solid rear axle kick sideways in a washboard turn? That solid rear axle is the other extreme.

A video I ran across.

[ame]https://youtu.be/wnKci_kn_EU?t=172[/ame]

What do you all think?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
All Valid points.


Although it is more complex than just the weight aspects, for the wash-boarded road you talk about.....


IF the carbon braking system ALSO specify's a different shock/strut with different valving that allows the piston to move at a faster rate (that is why the suspension will follow the road better with lower unsprung weight...lower inertia = easier to move = moves faster) and different spring rates, then it will absolutely make a difference in the handling over rough surfaces. Otherwise the handling improvements are negligible and MIGHT even cause additional bounce as more movement is transferred to the body, when the shock/strut piston is unable to compress fast enough. You could also lose traction when the piston does extend fast enough.

A car is individual components combined into a single unit and each part effects each other part, especially when you are talking about the suspension. In a lab, or just talking raw engineering data/book knowledge (which is what most of those YouTubers do, so much incomplete and mis-information) what your are saying is true, out on the street there are variables that make it a lot more complex...part of why suspension engineering is one of the most time consuming portions of development (For instance the ride is one of the most important parts of a Toyota, that would probably be why Toyota is taking longer to develop the Supra than BMW is for the Z4, the average BMW driver is much more forgiving of suspension harshness than the average Toyota driver). Also part of why people sometimes watch these videos, then go spend a lot of time and money removing as much unsprung weight as possible from their car only to find the first time they hit a bump mid-corner the entire car shifts 4 inches to the left or right, and gets a little scary. More to better handling than JUST lowering weight, although unsprung weight is one of the biggest issues. (Doesn't help uin these situation these people often get the stiffest shocks/struts they can in addition to lowering weight, double whammy)

Truth is, for losing control on the wash boarded road I think more would be done by moving weight from the front to the rear (true 50/50 or even 40/60), while dropping or keeping unsprung weight the same...and I've driven this thing on a lot of wash boarded roads....but you kinda have to be driving like an idiot in the 4 to lose control....the QV would be at ludicrous speed, as is. Seriously you shouldn't be going that fast...you can catch air from a relatively small rise in the road at those speeds and it's scary thinking about what is going to happen to your wonderful car when it lands, as it is flying through the air...don't do it....made me feel sick. Car is OK though...and I have a treasured memory that will never be repeated...



The real benefits from the Carbon brakes on the Quad (or any car) and the lower unsprung wieght would be increased fuel economy at all speeds, faster drivetrain response accelerating and decelerating, faster steering turn-in, almost impervious to overheating (important in a car that uses the brakes to juggle traction, even in the quad...only the rear has a torque vectoring diff), and ALMOST NO BRAKE SQUEAL (main reason for going ceramic in any vehicle IMO, I know as soon as I replace the brakes from wear that is what I'll be doing if possible). Other than the brake squeal and resistance to overheating, most of those reviewers - and most drivers sadly - are not refined enough, or will never be in a situation to even notice the benefits. None of them are a night and day difference, but to someone like you, or me...they are a legitimate difference.


IMO, you are absolutely right about them not being given the respect they deserve, those Carbon brakes are some of the best brakes on a modern car and IMO a worthwhile purchase, or after market upgrade down the road...


As far as YouTube car reviewers for the most part being ignorant....hopefuly I'm not included (for me it's for fun, and to try and counter the BS out there...no money...it is not my job - fingers crossed that could change next year-probably won't, but hopeful.) but yeah...totally agree, should be political probably but honestly...they make me think of a bit from UHF (the Weird Al movie...I know...) where a guy would jump out, slap people on the forehead and yell "So Stupid!!!" I want to find them taping, and do that in their videos... Really, it would be hilarious...



Also, to defend NOT buying the carbon brakes....even the stock brakes in the Quad (or base, Ti, Lusso) are lighter and faster responding than the unit put on pretty much any other competitive vehicle. Porsche, Jag, all of them use aluminum, not forged aluminum though, so even their aluminum parts are thicker, heavier and clunkier... (alfa is the only non-exotic I know that will pay for forging. Even Porsche uses casting and 3d printing...Bugatti is even going to 3d printed aluminum parts.)


I know I sound like an Alfa fanboy (cause you haven't heard me go off on how bad ass the Mustang GT is - that Coyote - or how the 987 Boxster/Cayman is probably the best modern/everyday sportscar ever made) but I'm really not, I love cars in general...and hot dang Alfa engineers and manufactures some pretty amazing ones...
 
#3 ·
it's a street vehicle, not a racing car - as is the giulia Q.
the CC brakes look great, perform great (not really better) but most who actually have them, or have used them on the track, end up reluctantly admitting the biggest advantage is they look great, followed by they stay clean.
there aren't any with sufficiently high street miles to determine if the up front cost would balance out in the long term in normal use - but those who have run them on the track have concluded they end up costing more due to the higher replacement costs.
toss in vulnerability to damage from debris, or even just a mistake when changing wheels, and most agree they are not worth the money - like most things that flat out look great.
if they meant not having to make a longish brake replacement pit stop during a longer race, instant justification.
but these aren't race cars. and the weight savings on these vehicles doesn't seem to amount to any noticeable or measureable advantage in performance.
 
#4 ·
I would be all in on the ceramic brakes except for the daily drivability issue. I have not experienced them firsthand, but it seems while they are amazing on the track, they have some work to do with them for modulation on the street. Biggest pucker I have ever experienced is being behind Cermaic brakes on a Porsche GT3 at end of LRP front straight. Its like someone dropped anchor and I wasn't remotely slowing at that same rate!!!!!!! and Evora brakes are world class!!!:eek
 
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