Bet this is how Alfa/FCA goes hybrid - Alfa Romeo Stelvio Forum
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post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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https://www.greencarreports.com/news...olt-foundation

Kinda cool, if only because this system is small, lighter and significantly safer than current systems...one of the big deals is it is only 48 volts so less chance of fire or electrical arcing if something goes wrong. Plus water cooled motors...great idea there.

Continental is rulling automotive development right now, how much you want to bet this system can basically drop in the Alfa and interface perfectly, considering the brake system is also Continental and there is a 48 volt system already on the 2.0 in Jeeps?

Notice the article talks about the Porsche Taycan being an 800 volt system...

...if something happened with the electrical of that system to cause the power to arc to the chassis (say an improper repair at the dealer resulting in a loose ground, as has happened to members of this board and was scary when it happened.)...it will cause the car to explode into a fireball. The good news is no medical bills...the bad news is, well, funeral expenses...maybe other people die too.

800 volts...doesnt seem to be a typo, other sites report the same...holy crap...50 volts can kill.

800 volts in something the moves, gets jostled, bumped and beaten while being exposed to every temperature extreme and type of weather and is repaired, often, by people who are inexperienced and inadequately trained.....this is one one the stupiest things humanity has ever done that doesn't revolve around war IMO.

As a reference Tesla is 375 volts...and notice how fast they catch fire when the electrical is compromised. Highest death rate in accidents in any luxury car. Yes, they have less accidents, but the chances of death are still higher. This isn't just because of the electrical, it is because of the high voltage.

Everyone is taught how dangerous 220 is in a house. Special protective plugs, only one or two outlets, highly regulated. But almost 400 volts or more in a car...that isn't dangerous...nah......no way...big IQ smart people say so. Billionairs even...no way a super-genius billionaire could do something dangerous without thinking of the risk to their consumer....and a German car company, especially VW (own Porsche) no way they would do something dangerous and borderline unethical....(except they have before but that wasn't with an EV.)

IMO there is going to be an accident so bad at some point, people on the sidewalk get electrocuted because the power arcs to some metal on the street. 800 volts...you are literally sitting in a powerplant capable of running a house for 2 days...with almost 8x's the voltage and a better chance of an accident resulting in failure.

With no protective clothing or any sort of insulation separating the occupants from the electrical system or chassis, so in a failure any power released is guaranteed to go directly to the driver and passengers.

In a house, ground runs to the earth, that is so if something goes wrong the power will run to literal ground and not go into the frame of the home, will not start a fire and will not electrocute people in the house. We developed this system because..well, stuff burned and people died early on, we figured out how to stop it.

In a car that is not possible, ground goes to the frame, the opposite of a home....power released will go into the frame and any occupants inside that frame. We havent figured out how to stop that yet.

Except Continental just did sorta..they dropped the voltage to semi-safe levels.

Yay!!

To give you an idea of how strong 800 or even 375 volts is, realize arc welders run at 300-500/volts. So that is an arc welder running to your body in the wrong circumstances.


Tesla death rate stats.
https://medium.com/@thewesternHedgi/...r-433670ddde17

Information on arc welding and electrical current.
https://m.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/...hock-faqs.aspx
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post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 03:27 AM
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Interesting articlel, although with a lot of provisos and disclaimers (“according to ...”). Hybrid systems also seems to be only a stepping stone away from combustion engines altogether.

BTW, high voltage is not in itself a problem. An electrical fence is usually up to 10,000 volts but not lethal. The issue - as you correctly stated - is the ability to arch, i.e. to “jump” from the contained/controlled system elsewhere. Which is why an electrical fence is high voltage...

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post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 06:59 AM Thread Starter
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Electric fences also run in pulses with longer periods off than on. Also at very low amperage, 120 milliamps normally...both specifically to not kill. The arcing...yup that is why it is high voltage....

I can't find information on the amperage Tesla or any of the other EV's run at, however, the battery pack fuse on a P100D with all the performance stuff is 1500 amps, although it would likely only pull that during full acceleration, there is nothing published for the normal operating amperage. And again it doesn't pulse, constant current.

Regardless 1500 is very high amperage when you consider a house is typically 100 amp service, and currents above .2 amp can cause severe burns and unconsciousness and need immediate medical attention.

IMO it is also why Jag/Land Rover and most other EV companies are not doing what Tesla is...


Info on amperage and current, etc...
https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physi...l_current.html

But yes hybrids are one stepping stone.....Alfa has already announced that the Tonale will be a 48 volt hybrid though. Bet it is Continental's system.

As far as the stepping stone though..to what?

Full electrics, or fuel cells...?

Toyota has a lot of plans on fuel cells, other companies/analysts too...

.

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post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 07:59 AM
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I don’t understand the 220 comment in households.. special plugs? Only 1-2outlets? Have you been to Europe? Everything is 220 and the outlets are similar to ours.
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post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 08:28 AM
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well yes, volts, but without the amps ...

amp .. lifiers - I have some older UK amps, with a voltage switch so they could be sold there (220)or here (110). of course when you double the volts you halve the amps to get the same watts.

waaatt?? the big fellas running kt88s or 6550's have very close to 700 volts at the plate by design, unfortunately with creeping upward wall current that can become (courtesy of big transformers) 800, and with the quality of today's tubes they arc across the plates quite easily.

that is a distance measured in mm's, from tube pins to pins.
yes, resistors or a variac solve the instant problem, but still leave a short life span for modern tubes.

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post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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Awesome, let's get deep!

Yes the Euro standard is 220 @ 50hz

vs 60hz in the US.

Hz is the frequency and 60 is faster, which makes it more dangerous. Don't know what the Tesla system runs at.

Lost, yup...amps are what count. In an EV it could be as high as 1500 at 300 - 800 volts at a constant current. And it is not uncommon for a wrecked car to end up mm from metal on the street/sidewalk.

No possibility it is not dangerous. The more you dig the worse it looks.

Before someone brings up AC or DC current. Yes, cars are generally DC which is safer.

Tesla uses AC and DC motors, and run AC current, what frequency do they run at? Don't know but given the high performance of the motors, I would not guess the system runs slow.

Not sure about the others.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/11...otor-in-depth/

To discuss wattage 100 kilowatt hours is the top end battery and the motors can pull 500 kw, even a slow, low end EV like the Fiat is 80 something kilowatts.

100's of kilowatts, 1500 amps, 375 volts for Tesla, 400 kilowatts, ? Amps and 800 volts for Porsche. Don't see a way to spin that as safe electricity to have possibly running to a human body.

Even a low end EV is running around 50 kilowatts.

...and yes they have fuses....which do not respond predictivly. The limits must be reached first. Considering the numbers being talked about, the limits seem to be very high.

I had a car stereo that ran 1.5 kilowatts....it was insane. Made freeway overpasses rattle. 1kilowatt = 1000 watts.

The more I dig the more it seems like EVs are being rushed in terms of safety. Not like the politicians or lobbiests or environmentalists know anything about how it all works. And the CEO's of the "best" companies beta test self driving software on consumers, so safety is not priority one. The traditional auto industry...they fought seat belts like it was a plague, again safety probably not a priority unless forced.

Could always be wrong. Hopefully I am.

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Last edited by ALFAOFFROAD; 07-20-2019 at 09:45 AM.
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