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Absolutely

Its not turbo lag.

Even the naturally aspirated power is delayed for that .5 to 1 second on tip in.

Thats throttle lag.

Turbo lag on our cars is almost non existent. You can make 20psi at 2000rpm.
I agree with you, but why add such a bad throttle lag on such a performance, sport oriented car?

This can be easily validated by switching from A - N - D, the throttle lag difference is immediate.
 

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I would guess, Lost, you haven't spent most of your life training your right foot to be a lead weight that slams down a gas pedal too. It helps.

Mustang uses an aluminum driveshaft, not carbon fiber.

Aluminum is heavier, doesn't spin up as fast from a stop, has more parasitic power loss. The way this car delivers power is partially to protect the componentry from shock when the carbon fiber driveshaft spins faster then the rest of the components can handle. (Has to do with inertia, the driveshaft has less effect from inertia then the gears it connects to)

There are aftermarket replacment's to change the Mustang's driveshaft to carbon fiber. Do a forum search, broken ring and pinions are not uncommon after the change, as is various vibration issues and other lesser problems.

Here's a video that is semi famous in Mustang circles... Fast forward to 5:30 to see what happens when a carbon fiber driveshaft causes a failure at a drag strip immediately after launch. Here it "disintegrated" that is what happens when the components the driveshaft is connected to are stronger then the driveshaft and the driveshaft spins up FASTER then those components can comfortably. Either the driveshaft or rear differential, ring and pinion gears... Something breaks catastrophicly, maybe not the first time...but eventually.

I guarantee part of why these cars work the way they do off the line is to protect things from breakage if the car is launched aggressively more often then not.




That's why.. really....you gotta use finesse from a stop, or brake torque and just ham foot it. No in between. This is the truest way Alfa's are like classic exotic cars.... To get the most out of them they require thier own style of driving.
 

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2022 Veloce Ocra GT with Active Assist Plus
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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
I would guess, Lost, you haven't spent most of your life training your right foot to be a lead weight that slams down a gas pedal too. It helps.

Mustang uses an aluminum driveshaft, not carbon fiber.

Aluminum is heavier, doesn't spin up as fast from a stop, has more parasitic power loss. The way this car delivers power is partially to protect the componentry from shock when the carbon fiber driveshaft spins faster then the rest of the components can handle. (Has to do with inertia, the driveshaft has less effect from inertia then the gears it connects to)

There are aftermarket replacment's to change the Mustang's driveshaft to carbon fiber. Do a forum search, broken ring and pinions are not uncommon after the change, as is various vibration issues and other lesser problems.

Here's a video that is semi famous in Mustang circles... Fast forward to 5:30 to see what happens when a carbon fiber driveshaft causes a failure at a drag strip immediately after launch. Here it "disintegrated" that is what happens when the components the driveshaft is connected to are stronger then the driveshaft and the driveshaft spins up FASTER then those components can comfortably. Either the driveshaft or rear differential, ring and pinion gears... Something breaks catastrophicly, maybe not the first time...but eventually.

I guarantee part of why these cars work the way they do off the line is to protect things from breakage if the car is launched aggressively more often then not.




That's why.. really....you gotta use finesse from a stop, or brake torque and just ham foot it. No in between. This is the truest way Alfa's are like classic exotic cars.... To get the most out of them they require thier own style of driving.
Protecting the carbon fiber driveshaft seems like a very plausible reason for them programming in the throttle delay.
 

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Yeah i agree. It may be intentional for drivetrain protection, it may have been to prevent jerkiness (i realize in practice it actually produces jerkiness), it may be because that powertrain engineer just did it that way on the last car they did too. Sometimes its unintentional. A throttle body and intake issue causes weird tip in problems, etc.

There's lots of things that can cause this.

I remember a team making smart harnesses for me so i could control non compatible big throttle bodies on an application where i needed to stuff massive amounts of air into it. That change in throttle body made the car so damn touchy at tip in youd swear the car took off before you touched the pedal lol.

 

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Cool.. so either hire someone to re-engineer stuff ....

Some people really like the throttle mods like pedal commander and say those help (I haven't used one, so no opinion one way or the other from me.)

Or learn to use less (to the point of almost none - weight of your toes) pressure at tip-in then learn the progressive speed to use when pushing the pedal down....

Or brake torque. (Which gets stuff primed so it isn't an issue)

And kill AS/S
 

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This is true for most all modern cars.

...BUT, for those with launch control or pseudo launch control you can do it from a standstill.

And for those without launch control you can do it for around 5 seconds or less.

So you hop on the brake holding it hard with left foot, then accelerator down with right foot, and then release the brake within 5 seconds

 

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18 stelvio ti sport
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I'm not sure exactly how I feel about the lag, yes it's there. I did install the Madness Go Pedal. It's a big improvement in feel. Using small throttle inputs, the car feels quicker, noticeable difference. I doubt it will change a stoplight full throttle start. Realistically we don't usually need that kind of thing unless you WANT that type of response where the wheels spin and you have that instant power rush. I don't think we can get that kind of response from our Stelvio. I will say that the illusion of a more response engine happens when you install the go Pedal.
Maybe part of the fun is when the turbo kicks in and the rush starts. It's noticeable and that is a certain amount of character too.
It's not going to be a V8 muscle car and it's not supposed to be. Half of the point for me is that is handles and feels like a sports car. I did put Michelin tires on it and it's on its toes now.
I guess it depends on what you want from the car. It's brilliant,,, at feeling like something special! It does what it does... I still wish there wasn't any lag , because it would be really angry from a stop ... but I don't think it's the point. It's a 4 right? It's a turbo and we expect forgiveness to a small degree... once rolling around bends it is a beast..
 

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I am enjoying the comments.
Well, most enthusiasts like lag free throttle response in cars. Turbo, NA, EV, it doesn鈥檛 really matter, we like it when the throttle pedal is met with immediate response. Now, it鈥檚 pretty understandable our 2.0 inducted cars are going to have some lag. In my 2019, it seemed more pronounced, so I bought a Go Pedal. It didn鈥檛 eliminate it, just throttled up faster after it lagged. But, I was able to tune it to my liking鈥
In my 2022, it鈥檚 obvious Alfa tweaked the throttle response: less off-on throttle lag, but felt slower. And Motor Trend Test of 2022 Veloce mirrored my experience - 5.9 0-60 vs 5.4 in 2018 model. Smoother, slower鈥
No worries for me. I put the Go Pedal back on and tuned it to the 2022. I will still brake torque here and there, but generally has just learned to optimize the pedal and still really love the ride鈥
 

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It's called left foot braking.......gas depressed just before brake released...zero lag. Problem solved..NEXT.....
 

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Anyone ever thought how contradictory it is to both want manufactuers to make their car's unique .....

.... AND operate EXACTLY the same one to the next in terms of how the controls respond to input?

This is how we get an industry making cars that look different and drive the same.

Be glad that isn't Alfa even if it means we have to either change our habits or deal with quirks like the throttle lag. Maybe even celebrate those quirks because it means you don't have a bland vehicle.


Unless that's really what you want, in which case... Good for you. Embrace it, there are alot of really great vehicles that aren't Alfa's.... Hopefully that will always be the case.
 

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2018 Stelvio Ti Sport Vesuvio Grey
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I just got my Stelvio back from an oil change and warranty work. I had the base model Ford Mustang with the 2.3T Ecoboost engine as a loaner setup by Alfa through Enterprise so I have a very good comparison after driving them back to back.

The Mustang has absolutely zero lag off the line. None. After turning the Mustang in and driving home in the Stelvio, the off the line lag was even more apparent. I have absolutely zero doubt it is in the Stelvio's TCU programming and has nothing to do with turbo lag. This is easily verifiable as when you floor the gas pedal from a dead stop their is a programmed delay; i.e. the rpms and the speedometer do not register at all for about 1 second. Try it (in a safe environment of course). Keep your eyes locked on the display; you will not see any response from the tachometer or speedometer for a second or so (I have not actually timed it, so "1 second" is just my best estimate).

As others have mentioned, the only way around this delay is to brake boost or to modulate the throttle, where you do not request full power and then the TCU does not appear to induce as much delay.
 

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Maybe a discussion on small block chevies. Cam and manifold/carb selection for off the line torque or higher rpm horsepower?
Not just small block, and not just Chevies:) Off the line, my 2.0 reminds me of the '68 Charger R/T I owned a little over 50 years ago - 440/4bbl, Torqueflite. A little easy on the throttle (maybe take about a second to get to the floor) so that the secondaries don't open too suddenly, thereby killing throttle response, causing a big lag, then a kick.

Completely different physics here, but same feeling between the right foot and seat of the pants (or shoulders into the seat).
 
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