[factoryhack]

It's how corporations become profitable now.

Alfa will get tax benefits that will contribute to the bottom line more than selling that engine in the US. It's a nihilistic view to say the least, but popular amongst corporate executives for valid reasons.

I don't agree with all the reasons, and think there are better solutions, regardless this is how it is.

Although.. I sorta suspect in this case the issue isn't just financial. I am guessing with Dodge and Jeep using the Alfa 2.0 in various forms now and having them outsell Alfa by a huge margin, combined with the uncertain supply chain, Stellantis would rather prioritize the engine for other brands, while also not jeopardizing availability for Giulia/Stelvio production. But I don't think that would ever be given as a public reason because it makes them look uncertain/weak as a corporation.

I think it's more about positioning the Tonale upscale from the Hornet , which is supposedly getting both powertrains and a lower starting price (although that could still change as well).

Higher starting price, more standard equipment, etc. is likely part of the brand strategy. Alfa is not supposed to be competing for Dodge customers. Audi Q3, BMW X1, Mercedes GLA should be where the Tonale is aiming.

As for a need to drop the 2.0 because of supply constraints or improving CAFE numbers, nah. There isn't enough potential Tonale volume to make any difference considering the scale of Stellantis operations and global demand for the GME 2.0.

Here's something to consider: Stellantis sells about 6.5 million vehicles annually which is almost 40% more than GM global sales. They're big. Really big.

Alfa Romeo annual global sales of 29,000 represents 0.4% of Stellantis' annual volume.

Basically, the Alfa brand is a rounding error. Our favorite little brand is lucky to even exist. Tonale is a very good thing and will undoubtedly help brand recognition, profits, and hopefully long term brand viability.

 

[factoryhack]

Don’t get me started on how the stallantis morons stripped options from their top of the line cars. Eliminated contrast stitching and alcantara from their QV models. You can buy a 40k dodge and get contrast stitching for Christ sakes. Ridiculous

Those content decisions are made at the assembly plant level, not by brand or sales region,, etc. Internally, profits are measured by assembly plant, regardless of what brand vehicles are built there.

That's why you can't really look at a Ram 1500 Limited built at the Sterling Heights Michigan plant and compare content with a Stelvio built in Casino Italy. Completely different animals.

When they take off options, or bundle options, or make previously extra cost options standard equipment, it is to reduce per unit cost via reducing manufacturing complexity. Materials cost is a relatively minor consideration. Complexity and massive build combination possibilities due to lots of custom options is very expensive.

As for complaining about losing some interior trim colors, that was also offset by making previously optional equipment standard on some packages. There's several threads about this elsewhere in the forums.

 

[factoryhack]

The 29,000 global figure seems low, aren’t they selling 15 to 20k just in the US? Still nothing comparatively speaking.

Alfa Romeo global sales have taken a sh*t during the pandemic, as have most manufacturers and brands. Here's the data for Alfa brand global sales:
2018- 83,438
2019- 54,375
2020- 35,718
2021- 25,964.

 

[factoryhack]

They didn’t add previous options as standard on the QV models. I understand all about reducing complexity and driving down unit costs. I also know you don’t sell a $95,000 dollar vehicle with identical interior to a $50,000 vehicle which is exactly what these morons did. The extrema model even has contrast stitching so that throws the “complexity” argument out the window. If not for my love of the brand I wouldn’t have bought my third Alfa and second QV. Maybe I’m the moron. If your selling a $95,000 vehicle ya better have some options especially when it’s your most expensive model. The folks running stallantis, Chrysler, Peugeot, Maserati and whatever other brand that was circling the drain have no record of long term success. Disgusted watching them erode the value proposition of Alfa. Sorry, very frustrated as I love this brand. Manufacturers like Porsche, lotus, Ferrari, hell even dodge offer a dizzying array of options and yet somehow they manage to produce cars. I refuse to believe they wouldn’t make money charging me $500 for yellow calipers which I’d gladly pay even though caliper colors were a free option before. Yet another rant on my part. Maybe I need Alfa counseling. Lol. Maybe it’s because my winter wheels haven’t come in so my gal spends all her time in the garage on a battery tender. Maybe my shoes are to tight or my heart is 10 times to small. Cheers

Well, you need to take that badass out of the garage and go spin some snowy donuts in a parking lot. Always works for me, and I only have a Veloce!

 

[factoryhack]

One might think, however this seems more a case of being ungrateful and entitled. (IMO large corporations are the most entitled entities ever imagined)

Stellantis is using everything Alfa developed, but they don't seem to be investing in the future to keep it coming. As much as I am trying to keep an open mind, the announcement the next Stelvio will be corporate platform is less then inspiring.

That combined with how Alfa engineered an AWD system arguably better then any full time AWD Jeep has ever designed, yet Alfa isn't allowed to - or just doesn't for some unknown reason - talk about it, doesn't market it at all other then to say it exists (which does more to keep Alfa sales low then it does keep Jeep sales high), and now allowing Dodge to not just get a poorly disguised version of the Tonale but give them more models and arguably better engine choices???????!!!!!


Not give Alfa the version with Alfa's own engine??

Yeah.. not confidence inspiring. Doesn't mean it won't sell though and I hope it does. Regardless, and I think many Dodge people would agree.... Kinda eff them for doing all this.... If they were going to rebadge an Alfa and sell it as a Dodge they should have done it with the Giulia/Giorgio platform, not a reengineered FIAT.

To me the demand for the Hornet has less to do with being a small SUV and more to do with, the pent-up demand for a new Dodge product. IMO if that product has been a more traditional Dodge-type product (IE, RWD) it would sell even better.

One related point. Platform sharing is not at all the same as badge engineering. Does the Giulia look or drive anything like the 3 row Grand Cherokee? Of course not, yet, same platform, completely different characteristics. Platform sharing is a very good thing, not a bad thing as it allows for a greater variety of products for substantially less development cost.

 

[factoryhack]

Agreed.

The concern comes from my opinion that doing something like taking a very expensive chassis and making it cheaper, is superior for the end product to taking something cheaper and making it more expensive.

IE: Alfa to Jeep is superior to FIAT to Alfa.

I do believe Alfa is as or more capable as any company in the industry and more then most in terms of tuning a chassis and engineering around shortcomings. Also that FIAT engineers solid platforms, but not like Alfa. It isn't I think the platform is bad or the vehicle will be bad per-se, I just think a new Challenger/Charger/300 would have made these pre-orders for the Hornet look like a joke. I genuinely think, like the Grand Cherokee, take the "Alfa-reliabilty" Boogeyman away and the magazines/reviewers would pee themselves to make positive reviews and the sales would set records. I think Stellantis needs to have more faith in themselves honestly, and should not be throwing everything into EV's like they seem to be.

I get the reasons why... Just don't agree with them. It's very possible and maybe probable the sales would more than compensate for any environmental fines for too low a CAFE. (And help pay for the EVs)

IMO the day Stellantis made this platform a dead platform, every executive of a German car company slept easy for the first time since they received the report after their engineers benchmarked it. Which they all did. IMO, they know what Stellantis seems to not, this platform could underpin almost anything and make it the best product in it's class. How long did FCA milk the Daimler-Chrysler era platforms? This one is so very superior to those ....

Just bitter I guess, end rant.

Grand Cherokee sales ARE setting records and getting getting excellent reviews. Undoubtedly, the very fine handling and rigid chassis of the Giorgio platform is a big part of that. I would expect any new platforms can/should be just as good.

If anything, Sergio Marchionne's vision from "Concessions of a Capital Junkie" is coming to fruition. Its a massive advantage to have the global scale of Stellantis.

Without it, the Tonale wouldn't even be here for us Alfa faithful to be bickering about, right?

 

[factoryhack]

Yeah.. after experiencing the B5 platform..... Then the B6, etc.... The B5 was superior to all of them, including the new one in many, many ways. Many.

Expect the STLArge will be this platform made cheaper to build. Exactly what VW did after the B5, they made the best platform avalible at the time then proceeded to make it cheap for....a decade plus now.... Which I hate. Hope to be wrong.

Honestly, I'de rather the Tonale didn't exist and Alfa spent the money on marketing and adding a mid range model for the Stelvio/Giulia along with a better backup camera, HUD and some of the other stuff the car is missing. Do a real update instead of these half-ass interior and exterior fascia updates.

Again... I believe they are abandoning the cars they have too soon, refreshes are all that needed along with more investment in marketing and continued improvement to the dealers.

Swapping out to the Tonale while using the same jargon they used with the Stelvio after Giulia sales disappointed... IE: the previous model wasn't where the volume is, this NEW model, this is where the volume is. That other stuff was for enthusiasts.. this, this new one will be volume.

Sure small SUVs are hot.... So are SUVs in the Stelvio class. All SUVs are hot. IMO this is like someone who keeps changing jobs thinking the next one will be "the break"..... It's like dude, you don't need a new job you need to stick with the one you have and make it work. It's good freaking job. Great even... Job isn't the problem.. it's you.

IMO the problem Alfa has aren't due to the quality of the vehicles or the market segments the vehicles are in.. the problem is something else and until it gets fixed..... Probably won't be going away and might get worse.

Alfa deserves to be above Porsche is the Auto world... Not a European Dodge alternative. Notice... Porsche doesn't feel the need to even be in the Tonale's class. We know the Stelvio is better then the Macan... If Stellantis acted like they knew that too, might help it outsell the Macan. If that happened Dodge could keep the Tonale to themselves probably.

“Alfa deserves to be above Porsche in the Auto world”

Honestly, no.

The Alfa brand is certainly deserving of WAY more recognition than it gets because the current products are excellent, but it’s not Porsche. Not even close.

Unfortunately, ineptitude over prior decades has kinda put a bad vibe to the Alfa brand. It will take time to fix and a wider range of products to get more Alfas on the road, even if some are not up to the standards of Giulia and Stelvio.

Porsche survived some dark times only because they lowered themselves to enter a couple SUV markets to the horror of Porsche purists. That SUV money paid for ongoing sports car development and furthered the brand’s reputation and legendary status.

We love our current Alfas because we’re a bunch of motor heads who are really into driving and recognize the excellence of the Giulia and Stelvio. We are also a very tiny minority of buyers.

The Tonale will help, even though it’s not as unique as the Stelvio/Giulia. It’s a baby step towards volume and brand recognition.

 

[factoryhack]

The funny part about what you're saying is...

Before the Giulia and Stelvio were released, Volkswagen Auto Group played a form of corporate warfare to try and buy Alfa from FCA, and if they would have succeeded they would have positioned Alfa above Porsche. Made it a Ferrari/Maserati competitor.

But Marchionne wouldn't hear of it.

Now the Jeep effing compass gets an Alfa engine instead of Alfa "because of sales".

FCA and now Stellantis don't know what they have.

Yeah SUV money saved Porsche... Why didn't it save Alfa?

We are talking about the Stelvio market and above that saved Porsche, not below. Which is the Tonale.

They need, and have needed to invest more in this platform. Not abandon it for something cheaper and think that will elevate the brand. Going cheaper doesn't elevate things by definition.

Yes, Alfa deserves to be above Porsche..... however your comment, as a former FCA employee demonstrates my point better then I ever could.

The parent company and the people employed by it... Don't put enough respect on their own brand's name and engineering... What the eff makes you think other people will?

Easy, they won't, haven't and didn't. Self-defeating BS. This is why Alfa isn't considered like Porsche.. not because they aren't because of this self-defeating crap.

FCA should have sold Alfa to VAG. It would already be above Porsche.

Well hot damn, Alfaoffroad. You need to get yourself a job at the Alfa brand and straighten their asses out.

I could probably hook you up with an interview. Then again, they'll probably ask about all your brand strategy experience, where you went to graduate school, and other silly stuff, so you might need to work on that a bit.

Snark aside, what makes you think VW wouldn't have dropped the ball and just slapped an Alfa badge on the same mediocre VAG platforms as the Macan, Cayenne, etc? Elevating Alfa above Porsche? Sure. No problem. Easy peasy.

VW is a giant corporation very similar to Stellantis, with massive global reach. They're certainly not magic though, and can barely manage a 2.4% market share in North America while my old pals at FCA U.S. LLC are pushing 12%.

Maybe my former employer is not as inept as you think.

Also, Mr. Marchionne didn't make the call on buying and selling brands. He was a hired gun just like every other CEO in the automotive business. His boss was a guy named John Elkann, a member of the Agnelli family that owns the Fiat Group (and Ferrari as a separate organization) after it was spun off.

Sergio was awesome though, and a lot of people like me kept their very nice MBA bro jobs because of his leadership.

We all have strong opinions about "what should be done" with Alfa. I can assure you, smarter people than you or I spend all their waking hours working on exactly that.

Also, the GME 2.0 block was never intended to be exclusive to Alfa. Its a corporate block that will continue to be used in a wide variety of products. To think it should be special to Alfa brand is delusional. The MultiAir valve train is what makes it special for Alfa. I don't see that spreading beyond Alfa because it is complex and expensive and exclusive in the current application. And yes, I know MultiAir tech is used in other Fiat powertrains.

 

[factoryhack]

Who said special to the Alfa brand about the engine? All I said is Alfa should be able to use it, considering it wouldn't exist if they hadn't worked on it.

Take Jeep and Ram away and FCA/Stellantis doesn't have much to talk about in terms of market share. Take the Giorgio platform away and Jeep loses it's best selling model. Record setting, best selling model. Model that wouldn't exist if not for Alfa.

Maybe VAG would have screwed up Alfa. Maybe. They have had massive failure no doubt, even of great vehicles (Phaeton).

What we know for sure is.... Stellantis is, and has, and seems to have plans to continue to do so. I have been one of their most fervent supporters since 2018....glad they didn't sell to VAG then. But this is just stupid what they are and have been doing.

Talk whatever you want about whatever however...

Alfa is no worse now than Audi was cicra the release of the A4.

It took one generation to fix that.

One. Fixed so well people forget at one point Audi was a laughing stock and considered the trashiest car for sale in North America.. again... All that changed in one vehicle generation. Really not even a full generation, a couple years.

Somebody needs to get their head out of their butt because the Giorgio platform is better then the B5 was and nothing VW did was magic....besides not downplaying thier own product constantly. Which you continue to do... Only furthering my point.

Yes, the Macan is nowhere near as good as the Stelvio... But that doesn't mean Alfa should be above Porsche?? Yeah ... Horrible self confidence. Just horrible.. for Stellantis most of all.

Ok fine it wasn't Marchionne who made.. what appears to be.... The stupid decision to not sell Alfa to VAG. Stupid not because Alfa is bad... Stupid because Stellantis doesn't know what they have and aren't utilizing it. More like a hoarder then a corporation.... Look at what they have done with Chrysler. As an outside observer..it looks like they just keep brands around to have them. (I understand there are business cases and the rest .... Don't pretend the optics aren't what they are)

Say whatever you want man, I graduated from business school. Auto repair is what I taught myself/learned by watching others.


Article from 2013 talking about VAG wanting Alfa and Marchionne being the reason it wasn't sold. I know he had a boss.

Alfa Romeo to Audi, a bad joke

Once again the Alfa Romeo’s possible sale issue. This time some ‘important’ analysts change the buyer name and add some more companies to the purchase. According to them, Alfa Rom…

fiatgroupworld.com

That article said selling was a horrible idea because Alfa being treated like Lambo would be less the the brand deserves.

I would argue now that would have been preferential to treating it like a *** step child of Dodge and Jeep. Which is what it looks like right now.

Ok, man. Unfortunately, the brand was a **** show long before the formation of FCA or the hiring of Sergio Marchionne.

I for one also had some strong opinions on what should be done with Alfa and even occasionally had the ear of someone who worked at the brand in Auburn Hills.

Keep in mind, Sergio once told us we could sell 300,000 Alfas, globally.

Unfortunately, grand ideas only become grand product plans if you can convince the finance gargoyles there's a legit and likely business case. Therein lies the problem when a company doesn't have the capital to water all the flowers which means Jeep and Ram get the investment. Everything else is a rounding error, at least in the North American market. The lesser brands do make money, though. Chrysler and Dodge assembly plants make money for the house, just not as much.

Fiat and Alfa is harder to quantity since most of the sales were outside North America and were traditionally part of the Fiat group along with Lancia, and Ferrari (before the spinoff).

Works the same way at all manufacturers, including VW.

If it had been up to me ten years ago, Alfa would have been selling an updated version of the 8C Competizione to compete with the 911 as well as a manual version of the 4C with a bigger motor to compete with the Boxster/Cayman. A Super sedan the size of a Quattroporte would have been nice too, as well as a 3 row Grand Cherokee big brother to the Stelvio on the stretched Giorgio platform. Going down market is fine too as long as the product has unique Alfa attributes.

The reality is the plan for full EV across the board was given the green light. I'm no longer privy to much insider knowledge so I'm just like you, trying to read the tea leaves about the future of the brand just like everyone else.

Also, if I ran things currently, I would have the CJDR dealers be given an opportunity with some corporate help to build their own Alfa show floors with a separate roof and dedicated technicians, possibly even in their existing shops. We even did that in smaller markets with Fiat. I was responsible for a couple Fiat-Alfa standalones as well as some Fiat shingles on existing CJDR dealerships. None of them ever got enough product to justify the investment for a standalone unless they had a rocking used car dept.

Nothing is as simple or as easy as we would hope when every decision has to have a business case to back it up. Publicly held companies don't give a **** about feelings or what is "deserved" for a brand.

As GM chairman Thomas Murphy once famously said; "GM is not in the business of making cars, it is in the business of making money."

And a final note about your observation that I or my former colleagues at Stellantis lack confidence, or are self defeating, or have our heads up our ass, or some other drivel. Yeah, you might want to dial that back a bit.

 

[factoryhack]

No intent to upset or offend anyone, not even really talking about people, talking about concepts the people and even execution are tangential. Understand the concept first.... Then deal with the rest is where I come from. Best way to avoid missing the forest for the trees is to not get wrapped up in the specifics till the generality is understood.

Make more money when you sell more cars. I get all the business school talk about profit, and alot more it isn't worth going into. Dad owns an Auto shop. Mom wasn't a homemaker, she was a corporate CFO who led international expansion of her company. I get that side to a degree.

If you don't think Alfa makes a better vehicle than Porsche in every way other then luxury, you don't have enough belief in the product. Actions speak louder than words, understanding given for when words are all there is and they won't be listened to. Regardless, justifying BS doesn't make it ok. The BS might be required, might be non negotiable. It's still BS and I won't call it anything else, even as I do it when required. No argument this isn't the friendliest way of living.

Only thing I care about in this regard is my personal ability to have really, really enjoyable cars to drive and it pisses me off deeply I see it going back to how it was before this Stelvio. Or anyone justifying it, consumers should not just shut up and be grateful for what they can get. Justifications and conjecture work both ways, the proof is in the pudding and so far the only proof here is Stellantis ain't selling many Alfa's despite it being the best vehicle in it's class, and instead of believing in thier product and doubling down they are dumping on it as a corporation.

Before the Stelvio I drove a Jetta. Pretty base one.

Not because I couldn't afford anything else, or because it was anything other then it was bland BS that was cheap to own, reliable enough, practical and at least had a manual transmission, wasn't totally gutless and went around corners competently. I won't pay over $40k on something that won't be enjoyed for more then a few months. Before the Stelvio .. there wasn't a car on the market the fit that description, even above $40k, the fun ones weren't practical. Drove them all.. many times. I will fight to the pain to keep from having to do that again. Unfortunately all I can do is type BS, so I do that. Maybe it will resonate and things will change, probably it won't. Don't care one way or the other, all I can do is determine what I do. Other's reactions are up to them.

Yeah Alfa has been a **** show for a while, before FCA, unfortunately outside of studying it to not repeat the mistakes of it, I don't believe the past has to define the future or present. That's more a result of not learning then predetermination. (This is why I bought an Alfa in 2018.... Marchionne for his doubtless many failings seemed to understand that when setting up this generation of Alfa's. These cars aren't built like the old ones, they did/do not determine it's reliability.)

The only thing I like about auto repair ... Is the repair part. Which I love.

Making things better then they were before is really cool. Letting them stay the same and giving reasons for it is against my personality. It isn't anything personal, I am as infuriating in real life for sure. Maybe worse actually, tend to raise my voice without realizing it and get really deep, my wife calls it barking. Trying to stop.. but seriously.... You should meet the guys I learned this from ... Could be worse.


I'll try to let it lay with this.

Even Toyota is pushing the fun to drive factor now. Maybe because that actually matters to people as much as reliability. The issue is there are a lot of people like me who have checked out because they don't believe anything is both reliable and fun to drive.

Alfa has that.. already, they do t have to tease the upcoming models that will be that way like Toyota.

They have it.

They should use it.

10 year warranty. Sales through the roof.

Without.... also ran to Dodge.

One point about Alfa vs. Porsche. It’s kinda hard to compare the two since the only segment overlap is with the Stelvio vs. Macan.

Porsche products are at a different price point and compete in completely different segments.They have phenomenal global brand awareness, probably on par with Jeep if we’re being honest. Alfa has more untapped potential and upside than any brand out there. Potential doesn’t pay the bills, unfortunately.

On a related note, I’m probably one of very few people who ever switched from a Macan to a Stelvio. And yes, the Stelvio drives much better, tracks straighter, has quicker steering, better chassis balance, arguably more sophisticated AWD, has a better base engine, and does it for a lot less money.

Of course, nothing I’m saying is news to Stelvio owners on this forum. If only the general driving public knew what we know.