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I see the frustration on the Hornet, but I was amazed to read that the 2023 Jeep Compass will offer the 270hp 2.0 turbo. Gee, what engine might that be? Does this provide "job security" for Alfa being the engineering brains behind so many other models in the Stellantis family?
 

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One might think, however this seems more a case of being ungrateful and entitled. (IMO large corporations are the most entitled entities ever imagined)

Stellantis is using everything Alfa developed, but they don't seem to be investing in the future to keep it coming. As much as I am trying to keep an open mind, the announcement the next Stelvio will be corporate platform is less then inspiring.

That combined with how Alfa engineered an AWD system arguably better then any full time AWD Jeep has ever designed, yet Alfa isn't allowed to - or just doesn't for some unknown reason - talk about it, doesn't market it at all other then to say it exists (which does more to keep Alfa sales low then it does keep Jeep sales high), and now allowing Dodge to not just get a poorly disguised version of the Tonale but give them more models and arguably better engine choices???????!!!!!


Not give Alfa the version with Alfa's own engine??

Yeah.. not confidence inspiring. Doesn't mean it won't sell though and I hope it does. Regardless, and I think many Dodge people would agree.... Kinda eff them for doing all this.... If they were going to rebadge an Alfa and sell it as a Dodge they should have done it with the Giulia/Giorgio platform, not a reengineered FIAT.

To me the demand for the Hornet has less to do with being a small SUV and more to do with, the pent-up demand for a new Dodge product. IMO if that product has been a more traditional Dodge-type product (IE, RWD) it would sell even better.
 

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One might think, however this seems more a case of being ungrateful and entitled. (IMO large corporations are the most entitled entities ever imagined)

Stellantis is using everything Alfa developed, but they don't seem to be investing in the future to keep it coming. As much as I am trying to keep an open mind, the announcement the next Stelvio will be corporate platform is less then inspiring.

That combined with how Alfa engineered an AWD system arguably better then any full time AWD Jeep has ever designed, yet Alfa isn't allowed to - or just doesn't for some unknown reason - talk about it, doesn't market it at all other then to say it exists (which does more to keep Alfa sales low then it does keep Jeep sales high), and now allowing Dodge to not just get a poorly disguised version of the Tonale but give them more models and arguably better engine choices???????!!!!!


Not give Alfa the version with Alfa's own engine??

Yeah.. not confidence inspiring. Doesn't mean it won't sell though and I hope it does. Regardless, and I think many Dodge people would agree.... Kinda eff them for doing all this.... If they were going to rebadge an Alfa and sell it as a Dodge they should have done it with the Giulia/Giorgio platform, not a reengineered FIAT.

To me the demand for the Hornet has less to do with being a small SUV and more to do with, the pent-up demand for a new Dodge product. IMO if that product has been a more traditional Dodge-type product (IE, RWD) it would sell even better.
One related point. Platform sharing is not at all the same as badge engineering. Does the Giulia look or drive anything like the 3 row Grand Cherokee? Of course not, yet, same platform, completely different characteristics. Platform sharing is a very good thing, not a bad thing as it allows for a greater variety of products for substantially less development cost.
 

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Agreed.

The concern comes from my opinion that doing something like taking a very expensive chassis and making it cheaper, is superior for the end product to taking something cheaper and making it more expensive.

IE: Alfa to Jeep is superior to FIAT to Alfa.

I do believe Alfa is as or more capable as any company in the industry and more then most in terms of tuning a chassis and engineering around shortcomings. Also that FIAT engineers solid platforms, but not like Alfa. It isn't I think the platform is bad or the vehicle will be bad per-se, I just think a new Challenger/Charger/300 would have made these pre-orders for the Hornet look like a joke. I genuinely think, like the Grand Cherokee, take the "Alfa-reliabilty" Boogeyman away and the magazines/reviewers would pee themselves to make positive reviews and the sales would set records. I think Stellantis needs to have more faith in themselves honestly, and should not be throwing everything into EV's like they seem to be.

I get the reasons why... Just don't agree with them. It's very possible and maybe probable the sales would more than compensate for any environmental fines for too low a CAFE. (And help pay for the EVs)

IMO the day Stellantis made this platform a dead platform, every executive of a German car company slept easy for the first time since they received the report after their engineers benchmarked it. Which they all did. IMO, they know what Stellantis seems to not, this platform could underpin almost anything and make it the best product in it's class. How long did FCA milk the Daimler-Chrysler era platforms? This one is so very superior to those ....

Just bitter I guess, end rant.
 

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Agreed.

The concern comes from my opinion that doing something like taking a very expensive chassis and making it cheaper, is superior for the end product to taking something cheaper and making it more expensive.

IE: Alfa to Jeep is superior to FIAT to Alfa.

I do believe Alfa is as or more capable as any company in the industry and more then most in terms of tuning a chassis and engineering around shortcomings. Also that FIAT engineers solid platforms, but not like Alfa. It isn't I think the platform is bad or the vehicle will be bad per-se, I just think a new Challenger/Charger/300 would have made these pre-orders for the Hornet look like a joke. I genuinely think, like the Grand Cherokee, take the "Alfa-reliabilty" Boogeyman away and the magazines/reviewers would pee themselves to make positive reviews and the sales would set records. I think Stellantis needs to have more faith in themselves honestly, and should not be throwing everything into EV's like they seem to be.

I get the reasons why... Just don't agree with them. It's very possible and maybe probable the sales would more than compensate for any environmental fines for too low a CAFE. (And help pay for the EVs)

IMO the day Stellantis made this platform a dead platform, every executive of a German car company slept easy for the first time since they received the report after their engineers benchmarked it. Which they all did. IMO, they know what Stellantis seems to not, this platform could underpin almost anything and make it the best product in it's class. How long did FCA milk the Daimler-Chrysler era platforms? This one is so very superior to those ....

Just bitter I guess, end rant.
Grand Cherokee sales ARE setting records and getting getting excellent reviews. Undoubtedly, the very fine handling and rigid chassis of the Giorgio platform is a big part of that. I would expect any new platforms can/should be just as good.

If anything, Sergio Marchionne's vision from "Concessions of a Capital Junkie" is coming to fruition. Its a massive advantage to have the global scale of Stellantis.

Without it, the Tonale wouldn't even be here for us Alfa faithful to be bickering about, right?
 

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Yeah.. after experiencing the B5 platform..... Then the B6, etc.... The B5 was superior to all of them, including the new one in many, many ways. Many.

Expect the STLArge will be this platform made cheaper to build. Exactly what VW did after the B5, they made the best platform avalible at the time then proceeded to make it cheap for....a decade plus now.... Which I hate. Hope to be wrong.

Honestly, I'de rather the Tonale didn't exist and Alfa spent the money on marketing and adding a mid range model for the Stelvio/Giulia along with a better backup camera, HUD and some of the other stuff the car is missing. Do a real update instead of these half-ass interior and exterior fascia updates.

Again... I believe they are abandoning the cars they have too soon, refreshes are all that needed along with more investment in marketing and continued improvement to the dealers.

Swapping out to the Tonale while using the same jargon they used with the Stelvio after Giulia sales disappointed... IE: the previous model wasn't where the volume is, this NEW model, this is where the volume is. That other stuff was for enthusiasts.. this, this new one will be volume.

Sure small SUVs are hot.... So are SUVs in the Stelvio class. All SUVs are hot. IMO this is like someone who keeps changing jobs thinking the next one will be "the break"..... It's like dude, you don't need a new job you need to stick with the one you have and make it work. It's good freaking job. Great even... Job isn't the problem.. it's you.

IMO the problem Alfa has aren't due to the quality of the vehicles or the market segments the vehicles are in.. the problem is something else and until it gets fixed..... Probably won't be going away and might get worse.

Alfa deserves to be above Porsche is the Auto world... Not a European Dodge alternative. Notice... Porsche doesn't feel the need to even be in the Tonale's class. We know the Stelvio is better then the Macan... If Stellantis acted like they knew that too, might help it outsell the Macan. If that happened Dodge could keep the Tonale to themselves probably.
 

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Yeah.. after experiencing the B5 platform..... Then the B6, etc.... The B5 was superior to all of them, including the new one in many, many ways. Many.

Expect the STLArge will be this platform made cheaper to build. Exactly what VW did after the B5, they made the best platform avalible at the time then proceeded to make it cheap for....a decade plus now.... Which I hate. Hope to be wrong.

Honestly, I'de rather the Tonale didn't exist and Alfa spent the money on marketing and adding a mid range model for the Stelvio/Giulia along with a better backup camera, HUD and some of the other stuff the car is missing. Do a real update instead of these half-ass interior and exterior fascia updates.

Again... I believe they are abandoning the cars they have too soon, refreshes are all that needed along with more investment in marketing and continued improvement to the dealers.

Swapping out to the Tonale while using the same jargon they used with the Stelvio after Giulia sales disappointed... IE: the previous model wasn't where the volume is, this NEW model, this is where the volume is. That other stuff was for enthusiasts.. this, this new one will be volume.

Sure small SUVs are hot.... So are SUVs in the Stelvio class. All SUVs are hot. IMO this is like someone who keeps changing jobs thinking the next one will be "the break"..... It's like dude, you don't need a new job you need to stick with the one you have and make it work. It's good freaking job. Great even... Job isn't the problem.. it's you.

IMO the problem Alfa has aren't due to the quality of the vehicles or the market segments the vehicles are in.. the problem is something else and until it gets fixed..... Probably won't be going away and might get worse.

Alfa deserves to be above Porsche is the Auto world... Not a European Dodge alternative. Notice... Porsche doesn't feel the need to even be in the Tonale's class. We know the Stelvio is better then the Macan... If Stellantis acted like they knew that too, might help it outsell the Macan. If that happened Dodge could keep the Tonale to themselves probably.
“Alfa deserves to be above Porsche in the Auto world”

Honestly, no.

The Alfa brand is certainly deserving of WAY more recognition than it gets because the current products are excellent, but it’s not Porsche. Not even close.

Unfortunately, ineptitude over prior decades has kinda put a bad vibe to the Alfa brand. It will take time to fix and a wider range of products to get more Alfas on the road, even if some are not up to the standards of Giulia and Stelvio.

Porsche survived some dark times only because they lowered themselves to enter a couple SUV markets to the horror of Porsche purists. That SUV money paid for ongoing sports car development and furthered the brand’s reputation and legendary status.

We love our current Alfas because we’re a bunch of motor heads who are really into driving and recognize the excellence of the Giulia and Stelvio. We are also a very tiny minority of buyers.

The Tonale will help, even though it’s not as unique as the Stelvio/Giulia. It’s a baby step towards volume and brand recognition.
 

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Yeah I really wished Ferrari would have bought Alfa and positioned them as the entry brand for Italian performance cars. I agree, in the eyes of the public Alfa’s once performance image has been tarnished by decades of underperforming econo crap boxes. It will take substantial capital to dampen the damage. The Giulia and Stelvio were a great step in the right direction but suffered from lack of continuing capital investment ( my guess as only thing that makes sense). I’m in mourning for ICE powered cars. The end is nigh. Fortunately I bought my “red barchetta” before the curtain closed. Although mine is green. 😁
 

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The funny part about what you're saying is...

Before the Giulia and Stelvio were released, Volkswagen Auto Group played a form of corporate warfare to try and buy Alfa from FCA, and if they would have succeeded they would have positioned Alfa above Porsche. Made it a Ferrari/Maserati competitor.

But Marchionne wouldn't hear of it.

Now the Jeep effing compass gets an Alfa engine instead of Alfa "because of sales".

FCA and now Stellantis don't know what they have.

Yeah SUV money saved Porsche... Why didn't it save Alfa?

We are talking about the Stelvio market and above that saved Porsche, not below. Which is the Tonale.

They need, and have needed to invest more in this platform. Not abandon it for something cheaper and think that will elevate the brand. Going cheaper doesn't elevate things by definition.

Yes, Alfa deserves to be above Porsche..... however your comment, as a former FCA employee demonstrates my point better then I ever could.

The parent company and the people employed by it... Don't put enough respect on their own brand's name and engineering... What the eff makes you think other people will?

Easy, they won't, haven't and didn't. Self-defeating BS. This is why Alfa isn't considered like Porsche.. not because they aren't because of this self-defeating crap.

FCA should have sold Alfa to VAG. It would already be above Porsche.
 

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Beware those cold pZeros........hope you stop by for some roast beast somewhere.
 

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“Alfa deserves to be above Porsche in the Auto world”

Honestly, no.

The Alfa brand is certainly deserving of WAY more recognition than it gets because the current products are excellent, but it’s not Porsche. Not even close.

Unfortunately, ineptitude over prior decades has kinda put a bad vibe to the Alfa brand. It will take time to fix and a wider range of products to get more Alfas on the road, even if some are not up to the standards of Giulia and Stelvio.

Porsche survived some dark times only because they lowered themselves to enter a couple SUV markets to the horror of Porsche purists. That SUV money paid for ongoing sports car development and furthered the brand’s reputation and legendary status.

We love our current Alfas because we’re a bunch of motor heads who are really into driving and recognize the excellence of the Giulia and Stelvio. We are also a very tiny minority of buyers.

The Tonale will help, even though it’s not as unique as the Stelvio/Giulia. It’s a baby step towards volume and brand recognition.
I wouldnt hold my breath..
So stripping the Tonale off the engine that probably would have helped move more vehicles is for the better? I love your optimism but to me what Stelantis is doing looks like a s..t show.
 

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I’m confident VAG would have known what to do with Alfa, at least way more so than either FCA or thus far apparently Stellantis. I wish it would have happened, but then again if you’re not sweating bullets the plug is going to be pulled any minute, is it really Alfa? 😜
 

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The funny part about what you're saying is...

Before the Giulia and Stelvio were released, Volkswagen Auto Group played a form of corporate warfare to try and buy Alfa from FCA, and if they would have succeeded they would have positioned Alfa above Porsche. Made it a Ferrari/Maserati competitor.

But Marchionne wouldn't hear of it.

Now the Jeep effing compass gets an Alfa engine instead of Alfa "because of sales".

FCA and now Stellantis don't know what they have.

Yeah SUV money saved Porsche... Why didn't it save Alfa?

We are talking about the Stelvio market and above that saved Porsche, not below. Which is the Tonale.

They need, and have needed to invest more in this platform. Not abandon it for something cheaper and think that will elevate the brand. Going cheaper doesn't elevate things by definition.

Yes, Alfa deserves to be above Porsche..... however your comment, as a former FCA employee demonstrates my point better then I ever could.

The parent company and the people employed by it... Don't put enough respect on their own brand's name and engineering... What the eff makes you think other people will?

Easy, they won't, haven't and didn't. Self-defeating BS. This is why Alfa isn't considered like Porsche.. not because they aren't because of this self-defeating crap.

FCA should have sold Alfa to VAG. It would already be above Porsche.
Well hot damn, Alfaoffroad. You need to get yourself a job at the Alfa brand and straighten their asses out.

I could probably hook you up with an interview. Then again, they'll probably ask about all your brand strategy experience, where you went to graduate school, and other silly stuff, so you might need to work on that a bit.

Snark aside, what makes you think VW wouldn't have dropped the ball and just slapped an Alfa badge on the same mediocre VAG platforms as the Macan, Cayenne, etc? Elevating Alfa above Porsche? Sure. No problem. Easy peasy.

VW is a giant corporation very similar to Stellantis, with massive global reach. They're certainly not magic though, and can barely manage a 2.4% market share in North America while my old pals at FCA U.S. LLC are pushing 12%.

Maybe my former employer is not as inept as you think.

Also, Mr. Marchionne didn't make the call on buying and selling brands. He was a hired gun just like every other CEO in the automotive business. His boss was a guy named John Elkann, a member of the Agnelli family that owns the Fiat Group (and Ferrari as a separate organization) after it was spun off.

Sergio was awesome though, and a lot of people like me kept their very nice MBA bro jobs because of his leadership.

We all have strong opinions about "what should be done" with Alfa. I can assure you, smarter people than you or I spend all their waking hours working on exactly that.

Also, the GME 2.0 block was never intended to be exclusive to Alfa. Its a corporate block that will continue to be used in a wide variety of products. To think it should be special to Alfa brand is delusional. The MultiAir valve train is what makes it special for Alfa. I don't see that spreading beyond Alfa because it is complex and expensive and exclusive in the current application. And yes, I know MultiAir tech is used in other Fiat powertrains.
 

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Who said special to the Alfa brand about the engine? All I said is Alfa should be able to use it, considering it wouldn't exist if they hadn't worked on it.

Take Jeep and Ram away and FCA/Stellantis doesn't have much to talk about in terms of market share. Take the Giorgio platform away and Jeep loses it's best selling model. Record setting, best selling model. Model that wouldn't exist if not for Alfa.

Maybe VAG would have screwed up Alfa. Maybe. They have had massive failure no doubt, even of great vehicles (Phaeton).

What we know for sure is.... Stellantis is, and has, and seems to have plans to continue to do so. I have been one of their most fervent supporters since 2018....glad they didn't sell to VAG then. But this is just stupid what they are and have been doing.

Talk whatever you want about whatever however...

Alfa is no worse now than Audi was cicra the release of the A4.

It took one generation to fix that.

One. Fixed so well people forget at one point Audi was a laughing stock and considered the trashiest car for sale in North America.. again... All that changed in one vehicle generation. Really not even a full generation, a couple years.

Somebody needs to get their head out of their butt because the Giorgio platform is better then the B5 was and nothing VW did was magic....besides not downplaying thier own product constantly. Which you continue to do... Only furthering my point.

Yes, the Macan is nowhere near as good as the Stelvio... But that doesn't mean Alfa should be above Porsche?? Yeah ... Horrible self confidence. Just horrible.. for Stellantis most of all.

Ok fine it wasn't Marchionne who made.. what appears to be.... The stupid decision to not sell Alfa to VAG. Stupid not because Alfa is bad... Stupid because Stellantis doesn't know what they have and aren't utilizing it. More like a hoarder then a corporation.... Look at what they have done with Chrysler. As an outside observer..it looks like they just keep brands around to have them. (I understand there are business cases and the rest .... Don't pretend the optics aren't what they are)

Say whatever you want man, I graduated from business school not trade school.

2013 article talking about VAG wanting Alfa and Marchionne being the reason it wasn't sold. Everybody has a boss, duh. Regardless decisions at an executive level are attributed to the CEO is an accepted simplification.


That author believed selling was a horrible idea back then because Alfa being treated like Lambo would be less then the brand deserves.

Some might argue now that would have been preferential to treating it like a ******* step child of Dodge and Jeep. Which is what it looks like currently.

The only point to argue over now is if it is a good idea or not.... Because the optics are what the optics are, and that is what they are.

Same cars... But Dodge and Jeep get more options interior and exterior, more engines, and better dealer support. Yeah Alfa's look and drive better, might cost more.. regardless looks like Cinderella before the ball not after. Which isn't a great look.

BTW.. Lambo still sells less
then Ferrari. But they are gaining every year and as of last year has record profitablity whereas Ferrari profits shrank. Matter of fact Lambo is doing so well at gaining on Ferrari, Ferrari is adding an SUV to stay competitive against them...

Oh yeah.... And The Giorgio/Stelvio was the engineering exercise for them to learn about SUVs before designing thier own.

(Ferrari above Porsche? Well... Yeah so is Alfa then )

It's arguable that for new product, Stellantis wouldn't have anything worth having if it weren't for Alfa. Alfa deserves better. Period.

It isn't about PHEV or anything else, it about using Alfa's engineering for the rest of the line.... then handicapping Alfa.

Truth is this seems like
it bothers me more then it really does. Conceptually this is highly offensive and bothers me a lot.. has to do with my autism, concepts mean alot to me. But the day to day practicality is different.... Assuming my next car is the upcoming Porsche EV SUV in maybe 3 years or so, (if I drive it and like it more then the current Alfa which is my expectation based on development info but that is conjecture till it's real. Mind is not made up by any means)....

I will drive that car happily, knowing without a shadow of a doubt, that Porsche benchmarking the Stelvio is a big part of why it's good. If it is.

(I'll also probably keep the Stelvio assuming it isn't worn out by then and don't expect it to be, but who knows.....lots can happen.)
 

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Who said special to the Alfa brand about the engine? All I said is Alfa should be able to use it, considering it wouldn't exist if they hadn't worked on it.

Take Jeep and Ram away and FCA/Stellantis doesn't have much to talk about in terms of market share. Take the Giorgio platform away and Jeep loses it's best selling model. Record setting, best selling model. Model that wouldn't exist if not for Alfa.

Maybe VAG would have screwed up Alfa. Maybe. They have had massive failure no doubt, even of great vehicles (Phaeton).

What we know for sure is.... Stellantis is, and has, and seems to have plans to continue to do so. I have been one of their most fervent supporters since 2018....glad they didn't sell to VAG then. But this is just stupid what they are and have been doing.

Talk whatever you want about whatever however...

Alfa is no worse now than Audi was cicra the release of the A4.

It took one generation to fix that.

One. Fixed so well people forget at one point Audi was a laughing stock and considered the trashiest car for sale in North America.. again... All that changed in one vehicle generation. Really not even a full generation, a couple years.

Somebody needs to get their head out of their butt because the Giorgio platform is better then the B5 was and nothing VW did was magic....besides not downplaying thier own product constantly. Which you continue to do... Only furthering my point.

Yes, the Macan is nowhere near as good as the Stelvio... But that doesn't mean Alfa should be above Porsche?? Yeah ... Horrible self confidence. Just horrible.. for Stellantis most of all.

Ok fine it wasn't Marchionne who made.. what appears to be.... The stupid decision to not sell Alfa to VAG. Stupid not because Alfa is bad... Stupid because Stellantis doesn't know what they have and aren't utilizing it. More like a hoarder then a corporation.... Look at what they have done with Chrysler. As an outside observer..it looks like they just keep brands around to have them. (I understand there are business cases and the rest .... Don't pretend the optics aren't what they are)

Say whatever you want man, I graduated from business school. Auto repair is what I taught myself/learned by watching others.


Article from 2013 talking about VAG wanting Alfa and Marchionne being the reason it wasn't sold. I know he had a boss.


That article said selling was a horrible idea because Alfa being treated like Lambo would be less the the brand deserves.

I would argue now that would have been preferential to treating it like a *** step child of Dodge and Jeep. Which is what it looks like right now.
Ok, man. Unfortunately, the brand was a **** show long before the formation of FCA or the hiring of Sergio Marchionne.

I for one also had some strong opinions on what should be done with Alfa and even occasionally had the ear of someone who worked at the brand in Auburn Hills.

Keep in mind, Sergio once told us we could sell 300,000 Alfas, globally.

Unfortunately, grand ideas only become grand product plans if you can convince the finance gargoyles there's a legit and likely business case. Therein lies the problem when a company doesn't have the capital to water all the flowers which means Jeep and Ram get the investment. Everything else is a rounding error, at least in the North American market. The lesser brands do make money, though. Chrysler and Dodge assembly plants make money for the house, just not as much.

Fiat and Alfa is harder to quantity since most of the sales were outside North America and were traditionally part of the Fiat group along with Lancia, and Ferrari (before the spinoff).

Works the same way at all manufacturers, including VW.

If it had been up to me ten years ago, Alfa would have been selling an updated version of the 8C Competizione to compete with the 911 as well as a manual version of the 4C with a bigger motor to compete with the Boxster/Cayman. A Super sedan the size of a Quattroporte would have been nice too, as well as a 3 row Grand Cherokee big brother to the Stelvio on the stretched Giorgio platform. Going down market is fine too as long as the product has unique Alfa attributes.

The reality is the plan for full EV across the board was given the green light. I'm no longer privy to much insider knowledge so I'm just like you, trying to read the tea leaves about the future of the brand just like everyone else.

Also, if I ran things currently, I would have the CJDR dealers be given an opportunity with some corporate help to build their own Alfa show floors with a separate roof and dedicated technicians, possibly even in their existing shops. We even did that in smaller markets with Fiat. I was responsible for a couple Fiat-Alfa standalones as well as some Fiat shingles on existing CJDR dealerships. None of them ever got enough product to justify the investment for a standalone unless they had a rocking used car dept.

Nothing is as simple or as easy as we would hope when every decision has to have a business case to back it up. Publicly held companies don't give a **** about feelings or what is "deserved" for a brand.

As GM chairman Thomas Murphy once famously said; "GM is not in the business of making cars, it is in the business of making money."

And a final note about your observation that I or my former colleagues at Stellantis lack confidence, or are self defeating, or have our heads up our ass, or some other drivel. Yeah, you might want to dial that back a bit.
 

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No intent to upset or offend anyone, not even really talking about people, talking about concepts the people and even execution are tangential. Understand the concept first.... Then deal with the rest is where I come from. Best way to avoid missing the forest for the trees is to not get wrapped up in the specifics till the generality is understood.

Make more money when you sell more cars. I get all the business school talk about profit, and alot more it isn't worth going into. Dad owns an Auto shop. Mom wasn't a homemaker, she was a corporate CFO who led international expansion of her company. I get that side to a degree.

If you don't think Alfa makes a better vehicle than Porsche in every way other then luxury, you don't have enough belief in the product. Actions speak louder than words, understanding given for when words are all there is and they won't be listened to. Regardless, justifying BS doesn't make it ok. The BS might be required, might be non negotiable. It's still BS and I won't call it anything else, even as I do it when required. No argument this isn't the friendliest way of living.

Only thing I care about in this regard is my personal ability to have really, really enjoyable cars to drive and it pisses me off deeply I see it going back to how it was before this Stelvio. Or anyone justifying it, consumers should not just shut up and be grateful for what they can get. Justifications and conjecture work both ways, the proof is in the pudding and so far the only proof here is Stellantis ain't selling many Alfa's despite it being the best vehicle in it's class, and instead of believing in thier product and doubling down they are dumping on it as a corporation.

Before the Stelvio I drove a Jetta. Pretty base one.

Not because I couldn't afford anything else, or because it was anything other then it was bland BS that was cheap to own, reliable enough, practical and at least had a manual transmission, wasn't totally gutless and went around corners competently. I won't pay over $40k on something that won't be enjoyed for more then a few months. Before the Stelvio .. there wasn't a car on the market the fit that description, even above $40k, the fun ones weren't practical. Drove them all.. many times. I will fight to the pain to keep from having to do that again. Unfortunately all I can do is type BS, so I do that. Maybe it will resonate and things will change, probably it won't. Don't care one way or the other, all I can do is determine what I do. Other's reactions are up to them.

Yeah Alfa has been a **** show for a while, before FCA, unfortunately outside of studying it to not repeat the mistakes of it, I don't believe the past has to define the future or present. That's more a result of not learning then predetermination. (This is why I bought an Alfa in 2018.... Marchionne for his doubtless many failings seemed to understand that when setting up this generation of Alfa's. These cars aren't built like the old ones, they did/do not determine it's reliability.)

The only thing I like about auto repair ... Is the repair part. Which I love.

Making things better then they were before is really cool. Letting them stay the same and giving reasons for it is against my personality. It isn't anything personal, I am as infuriating in real life for sure. Maybe worse actually, tend to raise my voice without realizing it and get really deep, my wife calls it barking. Trying to stop.. but seriously.... You should meet the guys I learned this from ... Could be worse.


I'll try to let it lay with this.

Even Toyota is pushing the fun to drive factor now. Maybe because that actually matters to people as much as reliability. The issue is there are a lot of people like me who have checked out because they don't believe anything is both reliable and fun to drive.

Alfa has that.. already, they do t have to tease the upcoming models that will be that way like Toyota.

They have it.

They should use it.

10 year warranty. Sales through the roof.

Without.... also ran to Dodge.
 
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