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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

Unless you are somebody thats driving a ICE VEHICLE and are trading it in for that electric car, you should not be getting any free money. Also that car you just traded in should be taken out of service and SCRAPPED.
Why should i subsidize your 10 car garage.
The only folks that buy these overpriced **** computers on wheels are the rich .ucks, they can afford the full price!
 

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Apples to oranges comparison. At least with the EV---your tax dollar goes into MY pocket as the subsidy if I buy an EV. Fossil fuels (and farm subsidies, etc...), your tax dollar goes into the companies' pockets. Sure, some will trickle down into your pocket with reduced (in theory) gas prices due to these subsidies---but you have no idea, in advance of filling up, if and how much.
 

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Agree I think.

With an EV, MY tax dollar goes in MY pocket. If I don't have any tax burden I dont get the subsidy. I must have at least a 7500 tax burden to get the 7500.

With 5.9T in fossile fuel subsidies much of our tax dollars go to fossil fuels whether you even drive a car or not. Or even if you take the subway or spent 50k on an ev you still pay the subsidies.
 

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All true, but how many people have no tax burden AND can afford an EV (subtract Musk, Buffet, and some others who pay less tax than their exec assistants)? Very, very few.

Assuming some (much?) of the oil subsidies flow down, everyone benefits whether they own a car or not, in theory anyway. How did that head of lettuce and box of cereal make it to the supermarket or just about anything Amazon to your front door? Indeed, those with EVs receive less benefit in this case.
 

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I can never figure out what subsidies oil companies get that aren't normal tax breaks for any company investing in development.
But even with whatever ... compare ExxonMobil quarterly profit and tax. Looks like a fair share to me, and they've had a few lean years.
Tesla on the other hand has had subsidies that never end, like selling carbon credits to other car companies.
I'll let someone else compare company valuation of tesla/apple/ExxonMobil.
Or explore how green rare metal mining in China and Africa is.
Product Rectangle Font Screenshot Parallel
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
My point was that the EV subsidies should apply only if you hand in a ICE VEHICLE to be scrapped otherwise is just senseless.
I shouldnt be surprised after pumping 3 trillion in the economy idiotically without it being backed up by production or services just so we can end up with insane inflation.
God forbid we fix health care or access to college for capable kids or propper public transportation that would encourage people to use it.
 

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Its great the oil companies pay their taxes but they get more subsidies than EV and all you hear people talk about is "why should I fund some rich dude buying an EV."

In actuality that 7500 credit is coming out of the rich dudes tax burden not someone else's but regardless of that we're all subsidizing all the rich dudes putting gasoline in their 10mpg Escalades as well.

Fossil fuel subsidies are direct and indirect to include healthcare expenses that the fed covers directly related to the use of fossil fuels all the way to more direct ones like getting cut rate government loans, (Exxon owes 60 billion to us), federal land given to you for pennies on the dollar, and federal tax breaks on the oil companies as well as maintenance and building of fossil fuel plants, refineries, etc.

Fossil fuel subsidies also include massive military spending to acquire and defend fossil fuel interests around the globe.


Despite higher has prices Exxon mobil posted highest profits in 7 years do that's good for them but it wasn't without all of our help.

 

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Really good TED talk on pure EVs. Maybe you have already seen it. Some stuff I already knew, but some new (to me) info I did not.

Presenter's thesis: Hybrids are the way to go for now and the near future in terms of lowest possible greenhouse gas emissions (compared to ICE and pure EV). Most importantly, he opens the aperture of the whole debate to a scope it should have been at all along, at least politically and in the media. The amount of energy consumed and green house gasses emitted during the mining and production of modern long-haul batteries (~300-400 miles) is more than ICE and hybrids. Crossover point is beyond the useful life of the car (in miles)

 

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I like that. Saw it. Were in our infancy in EV. Cleaner battery technology, maybe solid state or whatever batteries that can charge in 1 minute and last 600 miles etc. For now i also agree a 55mpg Prius for 26 grand that has a smaller battery is probably better than a 120mpge 100kwh battery ev that cost 55k dollars and has huge batteries.
 

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Sorry, when someone gets their taxes reduced for whatever reason, it just means others have to pay more.
I get subsidies for the poor - although things like child tax credits have redefined that. But solar and ev subsidies are coming out of your working neighbors pockets to go into yours.
Pretend this shell game is for social good or something if you want, but be honest about it.
The government "requires" a certain amount of $, and if they don't get it from you they get it from someone else. Perhaps hidden/buried so its not obvious (like on utility & phone bills) but its there.
 

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Sorry, when someone gets their taxes reduced for whatever reason, it just means others have to pay more.
I get subsidies for the poor - although things like child tax credits have redefined that. But solar and ev subsidies are coming out of your working neighbors pockets to go into yours.
Pretend this shell game is for social good or something if you want, but be honest about it.
The government "requires" a certain amount of $, and if they don't get it from you they get it from someone else. Perhaps hidden/buried so its not obvious (like on utility & phone bills) but its there.
Exactly. I wholeheartedly agree. That's why i mentioned "regardless" theres much more subsidies to fossil fuel industry. Their tax breaks ironically mean less money for healthcare for treating fossil fuel related health issues.
 

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Then change the laws. Why have capital gains taxes been lower than income taxes for like, ever? No matter what tax bracket you are in? Because economists have known forever that lower cap gains tax leads to increased investment which leads to more robust growth, which means more jobs--well paying ones too, which means a higher standard of living for millions, which means we have more nice stuff. Sure, there are CEOs that will do stock buy backs instead, but I think the connections above are pretty sound. We already have a progressive tax system. The wealthy pay by far most of the taxes anyway. Sorry for veering off topic a bit....
 

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Add to all this the reality that a hard working 40hr/wk individual should not need to depend on the govt. I lean heavily to the right, but this is one point of concern that was being addressed till inflation seems to be nuking all the improvements. Hopefully things plane by fall or I'll be doing some serious reinvestment while the markets are way do.
Supplements, in the long run, get abused...history is on our side here.
 
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Elon Musk is the singular greatest con man in history.

Didn't found Tesla, hasn't created anything...and there is a better chance of dying in a Tesla then any other luxury car. Tesla’s Driver Fatality Rate is more than Triple that of Luxury Cars (and likely even higher)

In addition to Autopilot killing people when used as marketed (not as intended..as marketed, which are 2 totally different things)....

But law enforcement agencies will charge the driver of the car with manslaughter while nothing happens to Tesla or Musk.


EVs, tax breaks.. whatever.... The real crime here is that this person has become the richest human in the world off utter BS, that benifits no one in no real way, and is measurably harmful in many ways.

The success of Elon Musk and Tesla is the singular worst thing that has even happened in the automotive industry. In terms of build quality a brand new Tesla is on the level of a 1980 Alfa Romeo.. on a good day.

EVs are a fine if shortsighted approach to cleaning up the environment..... Tax breaks.... Whatever man, if they don't go to buyers of new EVs,.... They go to line some corrupt politicians pocket or one of his/her buddies, I'de rather it go to a real person.


The problem that should be dealt with is the con man(men) making a fortune(s) while people argue about inconsequential crap. Just my opinion.
 

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Ha...

look at us... fighting over something so "middle class" while the true business end of capitalism has been using deductions and subsidies for years.

Wait until y'all learn about Section 179...

Or how Tesla makes more revenue on Tax Subsidies than they have on cars since their inception - to this day.
Did it every year thru the recession. new equipment is better than taxes...granted you pay later. Reason I'm a decade ahead of most cooleagues now. They retracted, i pushed ahead so as to not get left behind. Just finished all those payments last year............

Wow, feeling the love now.................I envision a dart board with a certain face on it............May be more fun than the old propellors in the urinals too............
 

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"You pay later"
What many people apparently overlook about accelerated depreciation, or even deductible pension/ira contributions.
Or you can pay sooner, with roth ira conversions - you will pay, but with awning you might eke out some savings.
 
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