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Exactly. I wholeheartedly agree. That's why i mentioned "regardless" theres much more subsidies to fossil fuel industry. Their tax breaks ironically mean less money for healthcare for treating fossil fuel related health issues.
Tax subsidies for the fossil fuel industry are miniscule per unit of energy produced compared to "renewables"
 

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Tax subsidies for the fossil fuel industry are miniscule per unit of energy produced compared to "renewables"
And anyway, if you believe that fossil fuel gets huge subsidies, shouldn't you be arguing to eliminate the subsidies rather than compound the error by doing the same thing in renewables?
 

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Its great the oil companies pay their taxes but they get more subsidies than EV and all you hear people talk about is "why should I fund some rich dude buying an EV."

In actuality that 7500 credit is coming out of the rich dudes tax burden not someone else's but regardless of that we're all subsidizing all the rich dudes putting gasoline in their 10mpg Escalades as well.

Fossil fuel subsidies are direct and indirect to include healthcare expenses that the fed covers directly related to the use of fossil fuels all the way to more direct ones like getting cut rate government loans, (Exxon owes 60 billion to us), federal land given to you for pennies on the dollar, and federal tax breaks on the oil companies as well as maintenance and building of fossil fuel plants, refineries, etc.

Fossil fuel subsidies also include massive military spending to acquire and defend fossil fuel interests around the globe.


Despite higher has prices Exxon mobil posted highest profits in 7 years do that's good for them but it wasn't without all of our help.

The "fossil fuel interests" you refer to are fossil fuel consumers not producers. American fossil fuel industries would love for foreign fossil fuels to disappear.
 

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Tax subsidies for the fossil fuel industry are miniscule per unit of energy produced compared to "renewables"
5.9T of taxpayer money is 5.9T of tax payer money.

That seems more than minuscule but my budget may be different than yours ;)


And the massive fossile fuel subsidies being lower compared to energy produced is kind of making the point that they're conveniently overlooked by so many. I mean the whole reason for the EV subsidies and renewable subsidies is to help establish these industries. The fossil fuel industry is apparently still working in getting established?
 

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And most of the subsidies are incentives for cleaning up and modernizing equipment. Not nessessarily a negative.

Part of me finds it humourous that people get more upset by giving tax breaks and incentives directly to consumers..

When ain't none a'ya batting an eye at the same things done to multi-millionaires.... Turning them into billionaires.

$4.9 Billion American Dollars, as of 2015, not internationally, not spread out among a bunch of corporation in an industry... No, the companies "owned" by one guy. Btw, It's more now.



People who can afford to finance or even pay cash for a $50k - $100k vehicle, getting a tax break really isn't the problem. Never has been... That isn't why your taxes are so high.

(Part of me find it funny.. the rest of me feel like I've been breathing the air in Hinkley, CA - where a fire at a 160 acre compositing plant has been burning for a week or so turning the air into something that makes a person want to vomit and head to the emergency room)
 

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5.9T of taxpayer money is 5.9T of tax payer money.

That seems more than minuscule but my budget may be different than yours ;)


And the massive fossile fuel subsidies being lower compared to energy produced is kind of making the point that they're conveniently overlooked by so many. I mean the whole reason for the EV subsidies and renewable subsidies is to help establish these industries. The fossil fuel industry is apparently still working in getting established?
You didn't read the article or didn't understand it. The 5.9 trillion was a made up number, not actual governtment subsidies. One would hope anyone would be suspicious of a number that is four times the annual us budget. They might as well have said "5.9 Gazillion."

But even that's not the point. The point is, we should eliminate subsidies increase the error.
 

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You didn't read the article or didn't understand it. The 5.9 trillion was a made up number, not actual governtment subsidies. One would hope anyone would be suspicious of a number that is four times the annual us budget. They might as well have said "5.9 Gazillion."

But even that's not the point. The point is, we should eliminate subsidies increase the error.
not increase the error.
 

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You didn't read the article or didn't understand it. The 5.9 trillion was a made up number, not actual governtment subsidies. One would hope anyone would be suspicious of a number that is four times the annual us budget. They might as well have said "5.9 Gazillion."

But even that's not the point. The point is, we should eliminate subsidies increase the error.
I understand that the fossil fuel industry gets a crap ton of both direct and indirect subsidies. A fuel industry thats been around for a few years now yeah?

And apparently they even get subsidies to maintain their infrastructure as @ALFAOFFROAD pointed out to include their facilities, transportation, production, refining, and even on the land they choose to tear up and even the speculation on lands.

Heck, my brothers in green even got paid by the taxpayer to go overseas and guard oil wells. I never made it there. Was instead paid to hang out around poppy fields lol.
 

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There's people out there who think the keystone XL ever carried a drop of oil. It didn't.


Here's something interesting...

WASHINGTON— New federal data shows the Biden administration approved 3,557 permits for oil and gas drilling on public lands in its first year, far outpacing the Trump administration’s first-year total of 2,658.

Nearly 2,000 of the drilling permits were approved on public lands administered by the Bureau of Land Management’s New Mexico office, followed by 843 in Wyoming, 285 in Montana and North Dakota, and 191 in Utah. In California, the Biden administration approved 187 permits — more than twice the 71 drilling permits Trump approved in that state in his first year.





 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
So the original idea was why give free money to a person that doesnt needed it. Corporations get subsidies to promote their agendas and theres simply not much anybody can do. In the US high level coruption is legal since lobbying, whether is fossil fuel, renewable energy, pharmaceuticals, agriculture, you name it subsidies to corporations arent going anywhere.
 

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So the original idea was why give free money to a person that doesnt needed it. Corporations get subsidies to promote their agendas and theres simply not much anybody can do. In the US high level coruption is legal since lobbying, whether is fossil fuel, renewable energy, pharmaceuticals, agriculture, you name it subsidies to corporations arent going anywhere.
Winner winner chicken dinner

The swamp is as strong as ever. Lobbyist have blossomed over the years
 

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Unless you are somebody thats driving a ICE VEHICLE and are trading it in for that electric car, you should not be getting any free money. Also that car you just traded in should be taken out of service and SCRAPPED.
Why should i subsidize your 10 car garage.
The only folks that buy these overpriced **** computers on wheels are the rich .ucks, they can afford the full price!
They are tax credits. It is not free money. Why all the jealous rage? Go buy an EV and get your own $7.5K tax credit.
 

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I understand that the fossil fuel industry gets a crap ton of both direct and indirect subsidies. A fuel industry thats been around for a few years now yeah?

And apparently they even get subsidies to maintain their infrastructure as @ALFAOFFROAD pointed out to include their facilities, transportation, production, refining, and even on the land they choose to tear up and even the speculation on lands.

Heck, my brothers in green even got paid by the taxpayer to go overseas and guard oil wells. I never made it there. Was instead paid to hang out around poppy fields lol.
The direct subsidies are miniscule. The indirect subsidies are mostly propaganda. The guarding of oil wells is not for the benefit of the fossil fuel industry. They would love for those oil wells to go away forever. They are to subsidize the fossil fuel consumer, not the producer.
 

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The direct subsidies are miniscule. The indirect subsidies are mostly propaganda. The guarding of oil wells is not for the benefit of the fossil fuel industry. They would love for those oil wells to go away forever. They are to subsidize the fossil fuel consumer, not the producer.
When you say miniscule, what would that be in the USA annually? A few hundred grand? A few million? A hundred million?


The Environmental and Energy Study Institute found that the US government alone spends $20 billion every year on direct fossil fuel subsidies. Of that figure, around $16 billion goes towards oil and gas, while the remaining $4 billion benefits the coal industry.

There is also data to suggest that the problem is getting worse rather than better. Between 2017 and 2019 production subsidies for fossil fuels grew by 28%.
 

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The outfit highlighted in red above should be i green, as their paper is obviously slanted their interests.
Subsidies like being able to deduct the cost of drilling a well ? If that isn't a normal business cost, which might hit oil and might not just like any other business that deducts costs for research and Development, which might work out and might not.
They pay to look for oil, pay to develop a prospect, if it produces they pay royalties. If they make $ they pay taxes, if they pour their profits into developing more product, yes they can deduct the costs. Just like apple.
They don't get to sell credits for what they didn't make to other car companies to create a profit from nothing, like tesla. That is a subsidy, and the cost of purchasing those credits is added to the cost of the purchasing companies product.
That is me putting $ into the pockets of tesla shareholders. Tesla is not valued for the actual car they sell (miniscule) but for the credits that everyone who doesn't buy their products ends up paying anyway.
 

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The outfit highlighted in red above should be i green, as their paper is obviously slanted their interests.
Subsidies like being able to deduct the cost of drilling a well ? If that isn't a normal business cost, which might hit oil and might not just like any other business that deducts costs for research and Development, which might work out and might not.
They pay to look for oil, pay to develop a prospect, if it produces they pay royalties. If they make $ they pay taxes, if they pour their profits into developing more product, yes they can deduct the costs. Just like apple.
They don't get to sell credits for what they didn't make to other car companies to create a profit from nothing, like tesla. That is a subsidy, and the cost of purchasing those credits is added to the cost of the purchasing companies product.
That is me putting $ into the pockets of tesla shareholders. Tesla is not valued for the actual car they sell (miniscule) but for the credits that everyone who doesn't buy their products ends up paying anyway.
Its not treated as normal business expense. Otherwise the deduction would be in small amounts over the life of the wells. Oil companies are treated differently. They can immediately deduct 100 percent of expenses regardless of future profits. Its not the same.

That goes for percentage depletion that oil companies can use as opposed to cost depletion thst you and i have to use.

Theres really no arguing they continue to receive massive subsidies. I don't think you could find any source that disputes the actual subsidies. Just differing opinions on how they should be implemented going forward.
 
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