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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I have seen every part on a car fail at 1000 miles, defects aren't restricted to any one component and their existence doesn't negate the realities of problems caused by leaving oil in for far too long. The great majority of failures aren't at 1000 miles, or even 10,000, they are at 50,000 or above.

Will this do anything?

Well..... It did remove enough dirty residue to make clean oil look like really dirty oil, in an hour, without even been circulated through the engine.

Let's realize... That was crud sitting in an empty oil pan.

When I change my oil it takes about 2 hours just to drain because I let it sit till nothing drips. That pan was as dry as it could get, before the cleaning additive and oil were put in.

If you want to think that is inconsequential... Because of whatever reason.. go for it.
 

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Well, I think you're both right.

Having a cleaning product sit in the oil pan for a few hours in order to dissolve as much carbon as it comes in contact with is a good thing.
That's less carbon in the engine to pollute the new oil that then gets used for the next 5k miles, once the cleaner and the dissolved carbon is removed.

But, at the same time, if carbon/varnish deposits have formed in the oil control rings, or in the multi-air unit, then the cleaner only sitting in the oil pan doesn't do anything to affect those deposits, though, since there is less carbon in the pan, the fresh oil may be able to clean those deposits up a bit more before the oil loses its ability to clean that away, and new carbon deposits start to form.

So, what really needs to be done is AlfaOffroad's oil pan cleaning, combined with a very aggressive engine oil that cleans carbon in the multiair unit and in the oil control ring, for a period of time. Of course, that 0W-30 SP oil needs to at the same time as it is aggressively cleaning the varnished parts, not contribute to LSPI during the period of time that it is in the engine.

You guys figure out what off the shelf oil meets that criteria, and let me know.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I don't think it exists unfortunatly.

That's why.... Really...... You want to change the oil at 5k from brand new and never go longer. Anything else is a band-aid that may or may not help.

My hope is the deposits inside the engine aren't severe enough to effect anything yet (44,000 miles is still pretty new), and that cleaning the oil pan and then changing the oil more frequently will keep it from building up.


Will add, my current plan is to do the next change at 2500 and see how dirty the engine is again after the same treatment. The hope being it will be much cleaner.. but we'll see. If it is cleaner I'll go 5k and check again.. still cleaner I won't do the treatment again probably. However if it keeps coming out that dark... I'll keep doing it.. don't think it will though. Really suspect that one or two treatments then regular changes at 5k will do the job. Changes at 5k from new.... Don't think you would need a treatment.
 

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Oh well lets tweak Alfaoffroad's nose again because his responses are just too much for words...
1). Everything you talk about lubrication has some validity but the passive-aggressive comments are just not appropriate. What anyone thinks it not a required comment. Keep your snark to yourself, it has grown tiresome. Stick to facts not opinions.
I've opened many engines, not just Alfas and there is always quite a bit of oil still in the nooks and crannies no matter how thoroughly you let it drain. Empirical testing has shown that new oil picks up the dirt from the left over oil still in the engine and that is why oil right after an oil change can look dirty. But that is the purpose of the oil, to get the dirt up into suspension so it can be filtered. It then follows that a bigger and/or better oil filter is an option. A too small oil filter can be compensated for by changing the oil more frequently but the real issue would be to see why the oil is getting that dirty in the first place. This can lead to a long discussion of combustion by-products and gas contamination due to direct injection but that really isn't our topic here...
2) If the engine is really full of sludge that will block up a pump screen or coat the inside of the engine you have more serious problems. To get that level of sludge takes hours of high temp running and failed lubrication (again proven empirically) which isn't usually possible with modern synthetic lubricants. (Unless you are a complete idiot and never change the oil) As I pointed out in an earlier post, my 1985 GTV-6 running Mobil 1 15W-50, more than 20 years ago, took 14,000 miles to even get the oil out of spec from being new. (empirically tested) Yes that was in a freshly rebuilt, surgically clean (we had a huge ultra sonic cleaner in the company shop so one weekend I worked a little 'overtime") engine but one would hope that a new $50K plus engine would be as clean in a modern car. One of the so called problems with synthetic oils many decades ago was that they 'caused' leaks. No they didn't, they cleaned the gunk out of the engine, which had been blocking up the dried out gaskets and seals, and carried it to the filter.
3) I too leave the oil to drip for quite some time, not usually as long as Alfaoffroad does but still usually long enough to have a sandwich and run up to the store and pick up the oil.
4) Does any of this really matter? Well, in a word maybe... Until the oil is analyzed chemically there is no real sure way to determine if everything is OK or there is a problem. I remember adding a can of Gunk engine flush to my parents car and running the car for a few minutes before we drained the oil, every 3,000 miles, but that was way before synthetic lubricants were mainstream. Did it really clean or did it do more harm than good by thinning out the existing lubricant? I would strongly suggest that if you are concerned with you pump filter screen or oil pump gears or lubrication quality that you contact a lab and bring them the required oil sample for them to test. it should run in the $100.00 range. Not too much for peace of mind. If something is found then the appropriate actions should be taken but what I suspect you will be told, assuming you are using the proper oil, filters and change intervals is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with you lubricant and your engines are safe.
5) Failures. I can't answer for engine failure but I would suspect that as consumers we are not being told the whole truth/story of what was found when the engine was torn down. I have rebuilt many engines which have suffered oil failure, head gasket failure, cooling failures and many other issues and ALL have run just fine for years after. Am I a great mechanic? No probably not, but I do all my own work. The point? My labor is my labor and it is free or whatever my time is worth to me. An Alfa mechanic gets paid and shop labor is not cheap. I seriously doubt they are going to do a forensic examination of the failed engine to really determine what happened. They are going to find a symptom of the failure and that is what the customer will hear. Given the stories and my own experiences with Alfa dealers I would not care to speculate on whether or not they do a more detailed investigation to determine if the problem is or could be a warranty issue. That is a whole separate discussion. Essentially though I find it hard to believe, unless there was a batch of bad oil pumps, defective screens or some other empirical issue, that this many modern cars would have the same issue. Can we say class action lawsuit. Porsche IMS bearings...
6) My GTV-6 and my wife's Spider Veloce both have 150,000 plus miles and are treated to yearly oil changes (they are not daily drivers any more but beloved 'family members'. Recently, my wife's Spider developed an oil leak around the head gasket (a common Alfa problem with the Nord engine) so I pulled the engine because I just decided after 25 years to refresh everything. I was not surprised to fine clean, sludge free, honey colored interior parts and everything still within factory specs for tolerances. A new gasket set and some new fuel injection lines had her ride back on the road in a long weekend. And, for the record there was about a 1/2 quart of oil in the 'empty' engine after I got through rolling over and taking it apart.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
25 years ago isn't today.

But regardless your contribution is appreciated.

The comments about the amount of oil left in the engine are especially appreciated... All the more reason for flushing the engine don't you think?

And if not.. again, good for you, I wish I were so secure.

Again... Most failed oil pumps are.. what they are. Do your own research, if you, never have an issue then feel happy with your choices..... And if you do, I genuinely hope you are also happy with your choices. That's all I am trying for here.. snark..... Well I went to private schools pre-school through my degree, and am autistic... Snark isn't to me what it is to you. Snark... Is an interpretation not an intent not from me at least. Not here... Genuinely trying to not contribute to the general argumentivness, though when you have this many Alfa personalities in one room, is it hard.

Although if you really don't want my options that is fair... I suggest putting me on your ignore list in that case. Not kidding about that.
 

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2018 Stelvio Ti Sport Vesuvio Grey
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Here are the notes from my service record in the replacement of my oil pump:

UPON INSPECTION FOUND VEHICLES THROTTLE LIGHT IS ON AND STOP
START IS UNAVAILABLE. FOUND VEHICLE HAS ACTIVE CODE FOR OIL
PRESSURE LOW. FOUND VEHICLE OIL PRESSURE SENSOR IS READING
LOW OIL PRESSURE FROM THE OIL PUMP. WILL NEED OIL PUMP
VERIFIED CUSTOMER CONCERN AND FOUND THE VEHICLE HAS CHECK
ENGINE LIGHT ON WITH CODE FOR P0521-00. CHECKED VEHICLE OIL
LEVEL AND FOUND ITS WITHIN SPECS. CHECKED OIL PRESSURE WITH
MANUAL GAUGE AND FOUND ITS 25 PSI WHEN REVING TO 3000 RPMS.
VEHICLES OIL PUMP IS MAKING NOISE AND ITS INTERNALLY FAULTY
CAUSING POOR OIL PRESSURE. WILL NEED TO REPLACE OIL PUMP IN
ACCORDANCE TO P0522
REMOVED THE VEHICLES ENGINE COVER. TOOK OFF ENGINE HARNESS
AND TURBO PIPE, REMOVED THE VALVE COVER AFTER TAKING FUEL
RAIL AND FUEL HARD LINE OFF. REMOVED THE ACCESSORY BELT.
DRAINED VEHICLES COOLING SYSTEM AND OIL
REMOVED BOLTS RETAINGIN TIMING COVER. REMOVED TIMING COVER
AND ACCESSED THE VEHICLES PUMP. REMOVED TIMING CHAIN WITH
SPROCKETS. REPLACED PUMP. FOLLOWED PREOCEDURE FOR PUMP
INSTALLATION. REVERSED PROCEDURE AND INSTALLED COMPONENTS
BACK ON. BLED COOLING SYSTEM AFTER REFILLING AND ADDED OIL.
BLED THE MULTI AIR AND CRANKED VEHICLE. CHECKLED OIL
PRESSURE AND FOUND ITS AT 60 PSI WHEN REVING AT 3000 RPMS.
VEHICLES OIL DELIVERY IS NOW WORKING PROPERLY AND THERE IS
PROPER OIL PRESSURE IN ENGINE
 

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Here are the notes from my service record in the replacement of my oil pump:

UPON INSPECTION FOUND VEHICLES THROTTLE LIGHT IS ON AND STOP
START IS UNAVAILABLE. FOUND VEHICLE HAS ACTIVE CODE FOR OIL
PRESSURE LOW. FOUND VEHICLE OIL PRESSURE SENSOR IS READING
LOW OIL PRESSURE FROM THE OIL PUMP. WILL NEED OIL PUMP
VERIFIED CUSTOMER CONCERN AND FOUND THE VEHICLE HAS CHECK
ENGINE LIGHT ON WITH CODE FOR P0521-00. CHECKED VEHICLE OIL
LEVEL AND FOUND ITS WITHIN SPECS. CHECKED OIL PRESSURE WITH
MANUAL GAUGE AND FOUND ITS 25 PSI WHEN REVING TO 3000 RPMS.
VEHICLES OIL PUMP IS MAKING NOISE AND ITS INTERNALLY FAULTY
CAUSING POOR OIL PRESSURE. WILL NEED TO REPLACE OIL PUMP IN
ACCORDANCE TO P0522
REMOVED THE VEHICLES ENGINE COVER. TOOK OFF ENGINE HARNESS
AND TURBO PIPE, REMOVED THE VALVE COVER AFTER TAKING FUEL
RAIL AND FUEL HARD LINE OFF. REMOVED THE ACCESSORY BELT.
DRAINED VEHICLES COOLING SYSTEM AND OIL
REMOVED BOLTS RETAINGIN TIMING COVER. REMOVED TIMING COVER
AND ACCESSED THE VEHICLES PUMP. REMOVED TIMING CHAIN WITH
SPROCKETS. REPLACED PUMP. FOLLOWED PREOCEDURE FOR PUMP
INSTALLATION. REVERSED PROCEDURE AND INSTALLED COMPONENTS
BACK ON. BLED COOLING SYSTEM AFTER REFILLING AND ADDED OIL.
BLED THE MULTI AIR AND CRANKED VEHICLE. CHECKLED OIL
PRESSURE AND FOUND ITS AT 60 PSI WHEN REVING AT 3000 RPMS.
VEHICLES OIL DELIVERY IS NOW WORKING PROPERLY AND THERE IS
PROPER OIL PRESSURE IN ENGINE
Thanks for posting. Sounds like classic scissor gear failure. At least it's fixed. Hopefully many more trouble free miles.
 

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Well, I think you're both right.

Having a cleaning product sit in the oil pan for a few hours in order to dissolve as much carbon as it comes in contact with is a good thing.
That's less carbon in the engine to pollute the new oil that then gets used for the next 5k miles, once the cleaner and the dissolved carbon is removed.

But, at the same time, if carbon/varnish deposits have formed in the oil control rings, or in the multi-air unit, then the cleaner only sitting in the oil pan doesn't do anything to affect those deposits, though, since there is less carbon in the pan, the fresh oil may be able to clean those deposits up a bit more before the oil loses its ability to clean that away, and new carbon deposits start to form.

So, what really needs to be done is AlfaOffroad's oil pan cleaning, combined with a very aggressive engine oil that cleans carbon in the multiair unit and in the oil control ring, for a period of time. Of course, that 0W-30 SP oil needs to at the same time as it is aggressively cleaning the varnished parts, not contribute to LSPI during the period of time that it is in the engine.

You guys figure out what off the shelf oil meets that criteria, and let me know.
Yep pouring it down is like touching 10%. More than nothing but it isn't going to cut it. I believe that you pour it in the old oil and let it run even under load a bit. Dump it. Now if you want to be good, refill to flush then dump, then refill with a filter replacement. You don't do this every time but like every 30K. If you don't run the engine at operating temp while doing something like this you are literally pouring money down the drain.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
If you do the flush first, remove the crap from the oil pan FIRST, so it doesn't circulate through the engine with the oil and detergent, sure.

Otherwise you are setting yourself. Up for a problem when the detergent gets overloaded with crap, and instead of getting it all out of the engine it moves it and likely concentrates it in a new spot.... clogs something else and creates a worse problem.

Seen it happen, many, many times. Why I am not doing that to my engine.. why many people suggest that Seafoam is bad to use.


Trying to solve problems not make different ones. If you want to flush out the oil pan FIRST so you are positive the oil and detergent going into the engine is clean and aren't just dissolving dirt that was stuck in the oil pan that is now being sucked into the engine then yeah, go for it if you thinos it a good idea. If you want to do two steps like that, it would probably be the most effective treatment and not be a bad idea. Otherwise, would not suggest it.

The problem is the permanent filter on the oil pump clogging up. That is all this is attempting to clean...it is not an engine treatment, it is an oil pan/pump treatment. It doesn't need to circulate the mixture to do that.

Circulating the mixture... Is not recommended. Not by me.
 

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You know I have to revisit this issue because it is one that I have been plagued with recently. I am torn on keeping the car because I have already spent so much. I have an extended warranty but who knows if they will do the right thing about honoring it. Anyway, it seems the front of the engine needs to be removed to do this proccess. I am wondering do they pull the motor to provide clearance. Does anyone have more details?
 

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I'll have to look next time I change my oil, I think dropping the pan and using brake cleaner (say every 50K) along with the more frequent oil changes. may be worthwile if the pan is easy to drop and one doesn't have to mess with any other seals, or complex part removal.
 

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I'll have to look next time I change my oil, I think dropping the pan and using brake cleaner (say every 50K) along with the more frequent oil changes. may be worthwile if the pan is easy to drop and one doesn't have to mess with any other seals, or complex part removal.
You read my mind except I was thinking carb cleaner. That is a more effective process but I really think we need a tread to resolve this issue. It is starting to become common place for a lot of us with earlier models. Posting experiences in that one thread will help weed out what is most likely true or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Be alot easier to do this treatment and use a boroscope after to see how clean things are inside the pan.

I should have done that myself.

Taking the pan off and cleaning it .... Make sure your work area is immaculate, no outside breezes bringing in dust and dirt. It's really easy to accidentally get dirt in the engine while the pan is off. IMO....good chance of creating new problem even if it's easy. Especially if it's something you do every few thousand miles for years.
 

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I was just about to ask you if you have the ability to stick a borescope down the engine, to get to the oil pan area.
You might need to remove the valve cover, but I doubt that would be a big issue for you.
Then its just a matter of seeing if you have a good drain port in the head that leads to the oil pan, or if there's enough room down the timing cover to get the borescope into the pan.
 

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‘18 Stelvio Ti Sport fully loaded It’s a DRIVER!
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Thought this might be of interest. Last week I could find the oil pump on the moparonlineparts.com site and had a price. Today I was checking and you cannot even pull up the part number. I see that as a bad sign for this parts reliability. Why would the part be pulled and not even show as a valid part number today?

Edit: Interesting note on the part: (found on moparpartsinc.com)

Buy OEM FCA Part # 04893614AF (04893614AB, 04893614AC, 04893614AD, 04893614AE). PUMP. ENGINE OIL.

Used After 05/02/2018, Used Up To 05/02/2018, (I need to check my build date - I know my car was built in May 2018 but what day!)

This Pump Doesn't Have Serviceable Parts
 

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‘18 Stelvio Ti Sport fully loaded It’s a DRIVER!
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I would really like to know the build month/year for the cars that have had the oil pump replaced
 

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‘18 Stelvio Ti Sport fully loaded It’s a DRIVER!
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Didn't you already find it changed on 5/2/2018?
wondering what the build date of the cars that are having issues and have had the oil pump replaced
 
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